Hello and welcome to a very special Greet the Gaffer episode of Sutton United Talk Time on Podcast! I'm your host, Mike Dowling, and I was joined by the newest man in the hot seat, Chris Agutter, or Aggie as he prefers to be called. Coming in during a busy period—six games in four weeks—Chris got candid about his quick start, his coaching background, and his unwavering confidence in the project at Sutton United. It's a must-listen if you want to understand the man leading the team forward.
Mike Dowling
Hello and welcome to a very special Greet the Gaffer episode of Sutton United Talk Time on podcast. I can't use Meet the Manager because that was done the other day. So we're going to go with Greet the Gaffer. We're in association with Lucky Star Gin as always.
Mike Dowling
If you're a regular listener, thank you very much. I really do appreciate it. And if you're new, very welcome. I hope you stick around.
Mike Dowling
I'm your host, Mike, and with me today, we have got Chris Agata, or Aggie, I believe you prefer. Don't forget, we love hearing from you. Join the conversations, stay connected, share your thoughts on the episodes, let me know what you'd like to hear, what you don't like to hear. My voice is a given, so sorry.
Mike Dowling
But you can find us on all social media platforms at Sutton Podcast. Likes, shares, and comments really help us grow. Before we get into it, Chris, I want to just say a huge congratulations to our ladies teams who won on penalties yesterday in the FA Cup against Brentford, who were previously unbeaten this season, and they're now qualified for the second round of the FA Cup for the first time ever.
Mike Dowling
Well done, Lucy and the team, and no pressure heading into Saturday. Chris, thank you so much for joining me on Sutton United Talk Time on Podcast, the number one Sutton United podcast. How's your day been? I know you've only just got home.
Chris
Yeah, no, thank you for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity to be on. Yeah, no, thank you. Day's been good, full on.
Chris
Literally just walked through the front door to talk to Saturday Night United, so it's all good.
Mike Dowling
Yeah, I've looked it up because you've had six games now, I think, off the top of my head, another two this week, and Friday will be four weeks since you walked in the door. It's been quite busy. Has it felt like a lifetime already, or does it only feel like four weeks?
Chris
No, it's gone quick. It's gone really quick. It's been full on. Your feet haven't really touched the ground yet.
Chris
I'll speak for all of the spaces in that respect. But it's been really enjoyable. As I've reiterated countless times, the welcome has been brilliant. We've been made to feel at home.
Chris
Incredibly well received and it's really given us great feeling towards the challenge ahead.
Mike Dowling
Excellent. I mean, you've done, like I said, a meet the
Speaker 1
manager,
Mike Dowling
doing an open training session, you're getting everything sort of ticked off nice and early. Was that people, as in Claire, telling you or were you going, yeah, yeah, I'll do all this, I'll do it?
Chris
No, to be honest, for me, what you see is what you get. So if, if you get plenty of engagement from me, it's a reflection of my feelings towards the people that I'm representing and the people that I'm talking to. So the fact that I've been really open and want to share and want to engage is, as I said, a reflection of the welcome that we've received and how at home we feel. To be honest, when asked about these various opportunities.
Chris
Like, for me, it's, you know, I want to grab both hands, and it's helped me to engage with the supporters as well. Like, it's as cheesy as it sounds. In the home games we've had, it's been like our 12th man, and we need to build on that. And we're going to do absolutely everything to help get us out of the ditch we've walked into.
Chris
And equally as well, the support know Sutton United far better than I'll ever know the football club. So for me, in terms of understanding what I'm representing, who better to ask than the people that helped me to find the football club.
Mike Dowling
I mean, I've done some digging. I'm sure you know. We're going to go quite far back. So, mum has told me a couple of things.
Mike Dowling
Yeah, she has. So, she was saying that you've been obsessed almost with football since you were about five and you were often over trying to wreck a green shed over your local wreck. What do you remember about those early
Chris
days? in a nutshell, really. My dad was a football coach, played professional football in Germany. My family are all football fans.
Chris
Really, I sort of didn't have much of a choice. I actually, I didn't start playing to a half sensible level until quite late. I say quite late, sort of 11-12, whereas now you see young lads, they're sort of five, six, seven years old. I was probably kicking the ball around at five, not particularly well.
Chris
And really, I sort of got into football more seriously at 11-12 and done all right. But yeah, the Green Shed, that was where we were probably the last generation jumpers for goalposts, where as a kid, I was out with my brothers, him and his friends playing football, playing wall ball. I don't know what it gets called in Sutton, but down where we were, it was wall ball. And I can just remember, if you don't hit the wall, you lose a life, you lose enough life, you then go up stand on the wall.
Chris
No, you have to stand on the wall. And then you have my brother in the football at you from 25 yards. And if you get hit whilst on the wall, you get on the wall next time. That was a real lesson.
Mike Dowling
Tell the players to forgive me if I've just triggered a nice little memory for you to go, oh, that's a game.
Chris
Incredibly traumatic as well for me. So thank you for that.
Mike Dowling
I used to do a thing for the Sunday team that I used to do is I used to play basically British Bulldog type thing with a football with one person in there. And if you hit someone with the ball, they joined you with a ball and it ended up people being quite vicious, but they didn't realize they were practicing their aiming while they were doing this. So I was like, I'm going to go for it. You've kind of given me the answer to this already, actually, because your brother, your mum said you and your brother were organising tournaments with other kids as well.
Mike Dowling
And I was going to say, well, where's that come from? But you mentioned your dad was a coach. Is that where it came from, where you're kind of being the organiser? Did you know you wanted to be a coach from a young age?
Chris
No, not really. I just loved the game, really. It was a release for me and my brothers. It was a, as I said, there was less disparity in terms of technology and bits and pieces like that.
Chris
So for us, it was as soon as you get home from school, if you went to school, and can we get our mates and play football and basically play until it got incredibly dark and then we'd still have a go at football get in trouble with our parents, really. That was the big thing for us. It was football or nothing, that's what it felt like.
Chris
Yeah, it was a brilliant memory for us.
Mike Dowling
And you said you got into football late, but your first time you played for money was at Eastbourne. There was a story around your first paycheck, I believe.
Chris
Yeah, there was. So I was, I think at the time, I was the youngest to ever play for Eastbourne by our first team. I can remember it was our club captain, Stuart Tuck, saw me play for either a particularly decent night in the game that he watched, which was a rarity, to be fair, because there wasn't many good nights. That was one of them.
Chris
And I ended up getting an opportunity to explain and break through to the fans. But because I was based Sorry, I've lost you. Because we were based in Ninfield, which was more of a rural area. You get the old farmer, country boy label thrown at you.
Chris
So I can remember getting all sorts of stickers. With your brown envelope, you get a load of cauliflower and carrots and all sorts of stuff. You get pelters for that. Yeah, that type of thing.
Mike Dowling
I was told chickens.
Chris
Honestly, it was, you name it, some sort of farm produce. Yeah.
Mike Dowling
And which team did you support growing up? Arsenal. Say again? Arsenal.
Mike Dowling
So would you say that influences your coaching style, the way Arsenal play or played? winger when you're growing up?
Chris
Well, I was quite fortunate because I think my dad was quite progressive in terms of his, he would talk to us about football on a level in terms of style, philosophy, brand of football. He would talk to us very much, I think, probably ahead of his time. He would talk to us about Johan Cruyff, Dutch football, Rijksmikkels, Votel football, that brand of football. And so when Jennifer Camp joined Arsenal, Mark Overmars joined Arsenal, there was a difference between Dutch football and football.
Chris
We'd been told about, spoken about so highly from my dad's perspective at Arsenal. And that was probably the biggest thing, is that link to a beautiful brand of football that looks so different than the more traditional up-and-atom brand of English football. And that was probably a big influence on me in terms
Mike Dowling
of... And were you at the game when we played Arsenal, back in 2017?
Chris
No, I wasn't. I watched it, though. Did you? OK.
Chris
Yeah. I wasn't one of the people to put a bet on the pot. Done. Done.
Mike Dowling
Done. Done. That was so... I mean, I love wine, but that was so disappointing.
Mike Dowling
So disappointing. You went into coaching quite early. Yeah. Into Brighton's Academy, was it first?
Chris
So, it was... I actually went into coaching when I was... So, the first team... on a private soccer school and basically up my money for playing.
Chris
As I said, I was a bang average player. I wasn't getting paid for it. To top up my money for playing, I then started coaching. He, for whatever reason, saw a bit of a...
Chris
talent there. And then off the back of that, that's where it sort of started. So I was 15, 16 when I first started coaching alongside playing. But I didn't view it as a long-term career plan.
Chris
It was purely football money on top of playing football. This is probably the best place to be. move forwards to then focus on playing.
Mike Dowling
So not earning much money, I'm seeing how Sutton might have attracted
Speaker 4
this.
Mike Dowling
Obviously, you had a good properties management. How did that happen? Why did you make that jump from the coaching to the management side?
Chris
To be honest, it was... I wanted to lead. I wanted to... I had a lot of ideas and I wanted to try and put them into practice.
Chris
And what better way to do that and to have the autonomy and control over the environment to then implement what you think is the best thing to implement to try and ultimately win games of football. That was in on his ego as well. You want to be, from a coaching perspective, a man. You want to lead a team.
Chris
And leading a team is also when you get winners in the FA Cup, FA Cup replay, 90th minute winner. Those moments, that emotion that come over, ultimately what you do it for. So that would be a standout factor. why they did
Mike Dowling
that. And obviously, your levels have moved up a little bit, each sort of move. What do you, if anything, do you miss about the slightly lower levels? Or is it pretty much the same, just slightly less time on the ball for the players and all the rest of that quickness of
Chris
thought? No, I think it's the higher you go. because it's quite difficult sometimes to understand what an opposition is going to do if they don't have a clue what they're going to do. So in terms of putting together a plan to try and negate an opposition's strengths or exploit their weaknesses, it can be quite challenging when generally they don't know what they're going to do.
Chris
So how are you going to figure it out? I went to Stevenage and worked in the first team there on an interim basis. It was the first game we played MK Don's Cup, my second round. I think it was the second round, can't really remember.
Chris
I actually saw the game easier because you could see patterns in the game. You could see themes in the game, so then perhaps the theme can be obviously read and you can then try and counteract them and affect it, as opposed to it being completely chaotic. And also, I think good players, yes, there's a degree of unpredictability, but generally a good player do or wants to do or see. So again, it's less chaotic, but as a technique, it's better.
Chris
So there's less turnover. Again, the transitions, it's more controlled. So that was the biggest confidence boost for me to sort of go, well, actually, I might be all right. operate at heart, because this feels easier if folks should say step four where it all started.
Mike Dowling
And at the Meet the Managers event, you said one of the biggest lessons you had is that you're dealing with human beings. I've often said silly things like one of the players pulled up with a hamstring, and I'm like, oh, he'll be all right for Saturday. And then I sort of went, oh my God, I'll be lying on a bed for two weeks. And I'm just sitting there going, this machine will be fine by Saturday.
Mike Dowling
How does that kind of guide you on your day-to-day? I know it's only been a few weeks in the National League, but how does it guide you with remembering these are individuals, not just
Chris
players? I just feel just what you see is what you get, really. I'm the same whether I'm talking to my next-door neighbour or I'm talking to David O'Bonner, what you see is what you get and I think the new environment. really important to remember that because it can be, it's obviously nobody, new people on mass, it can be nerve-wracking, you get imposter syndrome, you have doubts.
Chris
But ultimately, when you strip it all back, this is a bloke that's slightly better than the other set of blokes that we're dealing with. Do you know what I mean? It's on that level, really. And I think if you can if you can look people in the eye and be straight with people, be honest and give your opinion and ultimately be authentic, I think that's the best way to communicate and lead to get the best out of people.
Chris
That for me is the standout idea in everything of how we manage people.
Mike Dowling
I'm now envisioning you screeching in joy at your neighbour putting the bins out, as if David's just scored a goal. That's the image I've taken away
Chris
there. I did tell my neighbour about Wilter Zard's 19th minute win. I did borderline knee slide on the grass out the front. I
Mike Dowling
hope you weren't like Tats, I hope you were wearing trousers. You've also mentioned that the younger generation, this new batch of players coming up, they receive feedback differently. Now, obviously when I was growing up, managers were slightly different towards their players, but now you were saying that it's actually not just a one-to-one chat, sometimes it's you will arrange a video call or video clips or whatever. So talk us through how that kind of works on a practical level.
Chris
Well, I think just on a starting point, one thing is having a connection with people and building rapport with people, because I think that if somebody knows you're coming from a place of care, I think then that opens the door to lots of different feedback. And that also includes not sunshine and rainbow. and that also includes what the players got on Saturday after the game against Wildstone, which was anything but sunshine and rainbows. I think that initial connection to build that rapport with the players for them to say, oh, this team wants to help.
Chris
I think that is a starting point. I think it's also on his condition. We've got a leadership within the first team, squad, and we buy them into how do you want to receive feedback? When do you want the team to be?
Chris
What do you want to do on a second day of recovery? this type of thing. Try and get their feedback or input onto the process so they have a degree of ownership and ultimately that's each individual. So again there'll be some lads that you'll get far more out of on a phone call where it's not face-to-face.
Chris
You'll get more engagement from a unit meeting. You've just got the Whereas equally, like Woody, you just look him in the eye, talk to him straight and he wants to have a conversation. It's ultimately, again, what and who you're dealing with and what we think he's going to try and get
Mike Dowling
And that's management across businesses. That's all transferable because it's leading and building that trust within the team. And I want to say who, but someone described you as kind, intelligent and very hardworking. That was mum again.
Chris
The kind, I know, it wouldn't have been my wife.
Mike Dowling
Do you think empathy is slightly underrated in football or do you think the new generation of coaches have that empathy with players as well? Because there were years gone by, someone put up an old programme from QPR and I was reading it, Trevor Francis was having a go at one of the players who'd gone off to be at the birth of his child. And I was like, that just wouldn't happen nowadays. It would be like, nope, you've got to go and get yourself sorted out.
Mike Dowling
Um, do you think that's a general thing for coaches now, or is it still bits for running? Um, I just
Chris
think it's don't be a dickhead really. Like, it's like, and again, like part being, so I will make a million and one mistakes every day. Um, and, I think it's taking responsibility for your mistakes, it's wearing it, it's giving a direction or an idea to what actually has turned out to be a horrendous idea. It's holding your hands up and going, you know what, it probably wasn't the best thing.
Chris
And I think ultimately, you've just got to apply a bit of common sense as well. Common sense shouldn't be called common because it's not common. type of thing in terms of if someone's going through a difficult time or they've got things going on at home, their head's not quite in the building. and they need time to sort it out, well, give them an opportunity to sort it out.
Chris
If one of the players, for example, is travelling two hours, so we got it in a minute, like, Jackson is travelling nearly two hours to get to the ground when travelling at, sort of, 7.45, so where he's out injured in a minute, which is obviously less than ideal. The players have to report early in the morning, but if he comes in at that particular time, there's a lot of the traffic and it's an increase in his travel time and bear in mind he's got a back injury, it's like this is just ridiculous. Let's just get him in later so we can avoid a more sensible time to reduce his travelling time and then we can get him back on the pitch quickly. I think it's those types of things really.
Chris
Again, we give him the back end of last week off but he can do the rehab or the work needed to help back injury out in travel. He's a really brilliant senior, proper good character. Let's just sensible, really. I think those types, rather than it sort of just be labelled empathy, I think it's all just common sense.
Mike Dowling
And how over your career have you balanced this being approachable? but having that line and maintaining standards?
Chris
Terribly, probably. Again, I think it's being really clear on what the expectations are. Again, I think it's being honest, it's being straight with people. Again, it goes back to that initial connection with people.
Chris
If you've built rapport with people, then you can look people in the eye and when they shouldn't understand and expect you're in a position to make it abundantly clear that they're not quite delivering what they need to deliver. Again, that's being honest. I've seen, I've been in loads of changing rooms, I've been in loads of coaching setups and I've been support staff in certain environments where we'll talk about a player or a player we've spoken about in terms of them falling short of standards and expectations. And if you see a player in the corridor, it's all fine.
Chris
There's no issue. Like for me, You don't have the communication. There's a lack of communication. The players being put on the transfer, no idea why.
Chris
As opposed to, we've got an issue or you're falling short of the standards, just talk to people. And then you have that connection, it doesn't fester and things get cleared up far more efficiently and effectively.
Mike Dowling
Yeah, it's about that. You're falling short, but here's what you can do to improve. And this is what I'd like you to try out. And obviously sometimes, so you asked me to do things, I might try.
Mike Dowling
I'm not going to do it because I'm rubbish, but it's allowing people to have that chance to go, okay, this is where I can improve rather than just that shutting out business.
Chris
Well, I think it's the clarity, again, of expectations. People don't know that they're falling short. They don't know the expectations. So I think it's really the importance of this is what we need to do.
Chris
This is what we need to achieve at Sutton United Football Club. This is what we need to achieve. This is your role. Let's go.
Chris
And then I think feedback around, feedback that's relevant to the individual, honest feedback are two key to communication. Also, I say to the players all the time, and some can say it, that's part of the development of a young group. And again, we saw Saturday, we lacked leadership, we lacked personality, we lacked a bit of courage in those moments to go and win 3-4-1. And we went into our shuffle and we end up back in self-preservation mode, a bit of fear.
Chris
And it's almost like a best-afford-to loss rather than the alternative fare that game was going to be 1-3-4-3-1 if we just put our foot back on the gas.
Mike Dowling
It is odd because obviously, as I say, I pay to watch football, so that's my knowledge, but you can see it sometimes. You feel like, why are we dropping? Why are we not doing the same things as we were doing? And it just happens because
Speaker 4
Yeah,
Mike Dowling
you've got that lead, you want to protect it all of a sudden, but that's always going to come back and bite you. I mean, there'll be another time it works perfectly and everyone's going, oh brilliant, brilliant. It's the greatest thing ever, but you can't win with football fans. You mentioned in that talk that you quickly tweeted out, not tweeted out, you got on your WhatsApp group and mentioned that Steve had left
Speaker 1
and you were
Mike Dowling
talking to the staff about a potential move to Sutton. What was the first conversation you guys had and what made you think this could be the right project for you? Because obviously we were struggling and were on sort of an upward trajectory. What made you go, well, actually I'm going to move from this club where I've got everything going my way to somewhere to start over again?
Chris
Did we have everything going our way?
Mike Dowling
The way you want it to go, sorry. Or not, I don't know.
Chris
I'll leave that for the Worthing podcast. I left academy football because I wanted to go on a journey to see what level we can get to as a management team. We could have stayed at Brighton or I could have stayed at in a comfortable job, in a very good job, surrounded by the best facilities in the country with brilliant people, and probably had a job for years, but it wasn't fulfilling me, wasn't giving me what I needed. So I made it quite difficult to get back to the first team.
Chris
In terms of the 190, that's, you know, you can't a price on that. And it was my wife, both times, so when the opportunity came to go to work, my wife actually said to me, what's the point of leaving Brighton if you're not going to take the job? And I was like, yeah, good point. And when, and the haste and the swerving switch was far more difficult, far more conflicting in terms of my decision than the Worthing to Sutton split.
Chris
Because I had a connection to the club, it's my home club, it's the club that gave me the opportunity to get into first team. I've had loads of successes. So then when Worthing, it was a difficult decision for us. Again, when Sutton, I'm calling, The opportunity, there was still a feeling of, we're right at the start of the journey, we're worth it, but we're doing it with time, we want to progress, we want to make an impact as high up the football pyramid as possible.
Chris
Now, where better to do it than a club that's just come out of the Football League? that's got far better infrastructure, which has been a professional football club. Football club is, in my opinion, going back to that. It's obviously where things are going to do well if we feel like we're all big.
Chris
And for us, just a case of let's go. That was it. I mean, as soon as the reality of being a real serious goer, let's crack on, let's attack it. Whilst I'm preparing for a cup game with Wervin, I was also watching because I have more than one eye.
Chris
Yeah, it was, as a reviewer, it was an unbelievable opportunity where we can help a brilliant football club with a brilliant fan base. And that is the best. Because I love Hastings. And in terms of the fan base, in terms of the staff, the people, it feels like Hastings just steroids and a conversion.
Chris
And for me, it ticks every box in terms of what we want to do and the platform for us to then showcase at National League and hopefully expire with the football club.
Mike Dowling
Yeah, I mean, I suppose jobs don't always become available with everything nicely wrapped up in a neat bow. There's always going to be some reason why the job is available. And what I'm hearing here first is pre-season friendly at Hastings. Yeah,
Chris
there won't be one at Worthing, don't worry about that.
Mike Dowling
You said that part of the attraction was also the club's due diligence, and you said it was really positive and in the alignment of style and beliefs. What do you think the core of that is that unites you and the hierarchy about how football should be played?
Chris
Well, the football club of have made contact with myself based on the type of football that we've produced over the past two, three years. And that's a representation of what I believe in. So if the club is showing an interest in us because of the type of football, obviously winning a lot helps, but the manner of how when the club, from a data perspective, the match was held after the type of football they were playing, and how that aligned with the football that we'd helped produce brilliantly by the way at Worthing and previously at Hastings.
Chris
That for me is the best vindication of we're on the same page, let's crack on and let's move forward. it falls together.
Mike Dowling
You also said the toughest interview question was what happens if it doesn't work?
Chris
Yeah.
Mike Dowling
And your response was
Chris
it will.
Mike Dowling
It will work. What what gave you that confidence? Um, and has anything changed that confidence in the last three weeks?
Chris
No, like what? I'm gonna try and say this incredibly arrogant, but that what gives me the belief that it always has, we've won. Wherever we've been, Hastings, Hastings the two times we took up the presentation battle, those teams ended up competing for and eventually achieving promotion. team were in the time were in the team that we over from brilliant manager was is is done an exceptional job.
Chris
He's obviously gone back in there and and kicked kicked on again. Brilliant, brilliant coach. We we went in there and put a record on the board. Record airfield progress.
Chris
First round of the FA Cup. We won a lot of games there. And this was all playing a type of football that so aligned with our belief in, and we're unwavering in terms of our feeling that this is the best way to win games. And the fact that within six games we've managed to score 14 goals, with a team that previously looked incredibly gun-shy in terms of the opposition.
Chris
We've done that, albeit way too many. The fact that we've managed to put together the club's longest unbeaten season despite having minimal time in the group and the fact that Hartlepool who are in the middle of the play-offs. The spells of that game completely dominated them. And then playing a World Cup team on Saturday, we saw the previous week, despite losing
Speaker 4
to
Chris
New York, that game and went, oh, these are good. They were, they were very good. Obviously, York are right there. Benchmark.
Chris
The fact that I think we could score seven or seven and a half against them, like genuinely, back this morning. We could undercook that. We should score five. And we can produce that level of performance.
Chris
a million miles away from where we will be, it only confirms our belief that we're on the right track. And equally, our issue comes from us reverting back to not being brutally honest with the previous, getting caught half in fear, self-pity, negative thoughts. which has then led to those goals being conceded. You'll bang on, the back line on Saturday at 2-0 dropped about 10 metres, closer to 12.
Chris
Just that simple adaptation, 10 metres higher than we were in the first half, which means we're a lot more confident. It means when we're attacking, we can counter-press. When they eventually, we're in position to win first, ever, and then we stop counters of pain possession and build pressure. Then when you drop that, the first and second ball get overrun, not as connected.
Chris
All of a sudden you start feeding momentum in that from reinforcing of our, we're certainly on the right track.
Mike Dowling
Excellent. You've brought Dino, Ben and Frankie with you. Yeah. Not in that order, but you've worked before.
Mike Dowling
What makes these guys people you just can trust? You know they're going to do what you want to do. You're all thinking the same way. How important is that group?
Mike Dowling
Because you've mentioned many, many times we not me. And what what makes this team so strong with the four of you?
Chris
Well, Ben, I coached, partly to blame for his failed footballing career, but I coached him when he was 17, I think. Very bright. So I then brought him to the first team coaching staff at Haystack. Scout, he went out and watched.
Chris
countless games, Bibs, Balls and Cove, done the donkey work, done his apprenticeship. He then got promoted to team coach again, probably didn't deliver the actions he wanted to, but further learning. He's also an excellent goalkeeper. He wasn't a goalkeeper at Chelsea, he was a very good goalkeeper coach, but he hates being a goalkeeper.
Chris
But he, as I said, incredibly skilled. During that time at Hastings, after I left, he's probably been involved in two or three games. And then when I came back to play football, He was unwavering in his, let's go again, like there was no. There's risk to it.
Chris
You know, could probably do a bit in terms of football, because as we all know, firstly, that was stable, whatever is incredibly unstable. It's not the most secure job in the world. He was unshakable and he was like, yeah, let's go for it. And the trust that he showed in me and belief in terms of what we wanted, that meant a hell of a lot.
Chris
Um, and, uh, yeah, as I said, it brought up on, uh, some of the ideas, his own ideas. He will tell me when I'm doing rubbish. Um, he's got a real eye for it. Um, again, he's a proper good human being as well.
Chris
Um, so he's, um, he's someone that, It sounds a bit cheesy, but you're there by your side when you go to war, Joe. I know he's with us. And Dino, Dino, I tried to sign towards the back end of his career at Hastings. I tried to drag him.
Chris
I would say he's local to Hastings as well. Got a lot of mutual friends. His boy was a bright, We'd often cross paths while I was coaching there. And then he was in Bourbon, he was part of the team that lost the play-off.
Chris
He'd done a great job in taking over. And so then we went into Bourbon. Dino, he was... He's one of the best.
Chris
Unlucky, he doesn't want to do it. because if he did, he probably is magnificent. He's so humble, honest, incredibly knowledgeable, unbelievable around the place in terms of his energy. And again, we've got real a lot in terms of how we see the game, so the type of football implementing.
Chris
That's not my job. That's us working together for a period of time and basically all the best bits of the melting pot and winning loads of games, football going that way. That's great value for me, I'll pay to watch it. That gets the fans, that means we score late winners, we win games, 5-1, et cetera, that type of thing.
Chris
So it's very much a collaborative approach in football that we're trying to implement. Frankie was the intern, who got probably the best S&P to work with. We tried to tap him up the door of Worthing. He was brilliant.
Chris
He'd done a fantastic job with Frank, his brother at Hastings as well. He's a coach there. Young, right, really switched on. Again, he knows what we want, so we obviously don't have a lot of time to get people up to speed.
Chris
We need to improve the physicality. He knows what we want. So in this time, it's even better if you've got people back on with it to manage and make sure.
Mike Dowling
You've mentioned a couple of things about the philosophy and the way you want to play and the things that go on. You've set a target. You're talking about the distance covered and the physical output. I'm not going to pin you down and say, you said it's going to take this long, but how long do you think it's realistically going to take to get everyone up to speed?
Mike Dowling
I'll be talking pre-Christmas, post-Christmas.
Chris
Oh, pre-Christmas. They're getting older. But what you've seen at Parkour for 20 minutes, and we saw at Wilstone for 20 minutes, the challenge for us. 45s, 45s into 60s and then 60s into 90s, and part of that would also be recruiters that have probably been given better physical bait, as brutal as that was, outside the building, who could help speed that process along.
Mike Dowling
And you've also said the best way to defend is to have the ball. Obviously, you weren't a George Graham Arsenal fan, because the best way to defend was in the stand. But how quickly are we going to see... I mean, it's a confidence thing, I know, with the players being confident to have the ball and not suddenly go, God, I don't want it.
Mike Dowling
But again, is that a process that your players are going to be able to make a mistake or two, or do you feel this is something that might need a tweak in personnel as well as coaching?
Chris
Oh, there's no doubt at some point it's a loser ball in Arsenal's box, two and a half thousand Sutton scores, which is disappointing and frustrating because the opposition have just scored. But the alternative to that is we saw against Wildstone from 2-0 to 3-2 where we ended up playing low percentage, playing with fear and we essentially lost that game. Whereas what we saw when we passed the football, played with courage, made hard-run support, we played past all the other teams in the shape to then create a victory forwards. What we saw was us dominating the ball and creating chances, and 2-0 up could have been 3-0 up.
Chris
So in terms of the players being able consistently, they're getting there. They were the best I've seen this summer. So we've obviously got the lads out on loan. I'm quite open about the fact it's the biggest squad.
Chris
I mean, there's nearly 5,000 players in the building. It's just way too many. I'm not a good enough manager to keep people happy. When you've got 10 players out of a state squad, that's That's not a recipe to squad morale, player development, winning games.
Chris
I've never seen it work. So that's out on loan. We've did a little bit. We've added a bit more quality.
Chris
Um, that quality over quantity of pride without starting to live today. Um, but we will, um, play again. Um, only we got, we talk about, um, back in football play by development. If we don't win games, I'm not sure we'll be able to see the bigger picture.
Chris
So what's really important is that we work with the group to help us win more games. Also then to get the time to implement our way of playing longer. which again raises the players, the group, the whole, and then with them sitting where we are in the league, we're now talking about the other end of the spectrum, where we're back into the football, which is obviously
Mike Dowling
You've mentioned a couple of things here. I didn't want to talk specifically about certain players because I don't like doing that, but there's two in particular. So you called Hayden back from loan. Yeah.
Mike Dowling
Straight away. And one of the things was you said that he was a glue and he was a leader. What makes you decide that kind of thing about someone so quickly? I know you were aware of him, but I don't think you've actually worked with him before.
Chris
It was just so obvious that he'd come in and train. Salisbury, where he was on loan, didn't have a training session until Thursday, so he asked to come in on Thursday. come in and was run off, if not the training pitch, you're sort of thinking, where's he been? And then when you're sitting down for lunch, the whole group gravitate towards cracking jokes and the life and soul of the party.
Chris
It was great on the night. It was so obvious. and I just turned around and said, I've got to get back. So yeah, it was no sort of brilliant bit of reading between the lines, so blatantly obvious that someone could help us.
Mike Dowling
Yeah, there'll be no more nights out for him anymore. He's got a little baby now, so
Chris
stay home. That sums him up, though. You know, his partner's just given birth and he comes by the train in the morning. Like, by fair play.
Chris
I probably would have done the same to get out of the house, but he's obviously doing that because he's committed to his football, do you know what I mean? And you can see it in the games. For me, he's been clearly my best player since he's come back. So, yeah, it was obvious.
Mike Dowling
And the other, I have to admit, I was, I was quietly punching the air because I'm quite open with my lack of knowledge, but Dean was talking about Jack Wadham saying that he's got the ability, potential, but we need to unleash the confidence. And I was actually saying that a few weeks ago. He's like, I want Jack to understand how good he is and just go, this is my game. This is my football pitch.
Mike Dowling
And all of you are going to give me the ball. Um, how is it possible? earning millions in the Premier League? If you could answer this question, how is it possible to get that confidence with someone as quickly as possible?
Chris
I think the outcome's important. So if you see the reward for doing something, that's a great way to get people to buy in. Like Lewis Simpah, as an example, before we walked through the door, August to October, had four goal contributions. And now he's at 11 goal contribution within three weeks of working together.
Chris
So we do certain things, he's done it and then he's seen the benefit of that. Now he looks like a player who, well, he's easily going to win the league. I mean, keep that quiet, obviously, but And like with Wads, it's obviously slightly different because he's a different type of player to me in terms of goal contributions. He's not going to get as many, but he's the one assisted the most.
Chris
So again, just trying to celebrate. The thing is with Wads, he's incredibly analytical, incredibly bright. And sometimes that can be a gift as well as a curse, as well as a gift. And, you know, sometimes he understands the game too well, will look at the risk versus reward and play safe.
Chris
and started working backwards and ultimately for me his best attitude as he started is as good as anyone at the football club in terms of being able to break line and find players between lines and play forward fast. But when you are as bright as he is, you look at it sometimes without a lot of thinking. So I think it's clarity of messaging, giving him a bit of a cushion as well in terms of, look, if you lose, that was it. As long as you run around and you work hard and you do the stuff against the football, that gives you the opportunity to then risk the ball, move it playing forwards and turn it over, again, not a problem as long as there's a reaction.
Chris
And also I think it's, if you ask a lot of the people, I've done this a few times, it's amazing. the amount of times lads can't answer it. Like, what makes you a good player? And genuinely, the amount of players that, like, they haven't thought about it.
Chris
And so then that leads to, well, try and remember your best performance. Like, there's one game out for every one week. That was, well, it didn't for me to be fair, because I was as average, but like, proper players have that one game where you know, I was good. I think trying to get them to reflect on that, that will give you the booze in terms of what you've got to go after moving forward, then get closer to your best level and get closer to your potential.
Mike Dowling
Yeah, you mentioned about Jack and his analytical. There was last season he scored against Man United on 21s. I think he might have scored the winner and he literally just picked up the ball and looked like he was picking up a paper or something. And I was like, how come you didn't celebrate?
Mike Dowling
And he was like, did you watch the match? I was rubbish the whole game. And I was like, oh my God, you've just scored the winner. But yeah, okay.
Mike Dowling
I'm going to bow to your judgment on that. So the, You've obviously mentioned about the small impactful moments that you said, but how, how different is it from going into this room? You said you're going to a room full of almost strangers, you know, one or two of the players, but we're working with someone else's squad. You don't have the knowledge of what's happened before you six months ago, whatever, with these players.
Mike Dowling
How difficult is that to start all over again and say, right, everything that's gone before doesn't count. This is where we're starting again.
Chris
I don't think it is a case to say that it doesn't matter. I think you've got to be open to the best bits from the press, because there will be some good bits, no doubt. It's acknowledging them and making sure we keep doing that. There's no point undoing really good work.
Chris
So again, the importance of having an open and honest conversation with people, getting feedback from the players, the supporters. The supporters see a lot more than what we think and the supporters will pick up a lot more on certain aspects of the football club. perhaps we give them credit. So I think it's those are open and honest conversations.
Chris
And again, I think clarity of messaging, this is what we're gonna go after, what we believe in. At previous clubs, we've won a shitload of games. We're gonna play our front foot aggressively. Who doesn't wanna do that?
Chris
And again, just be really transparent and consistent with, and ultimately, I don't think people, I think people can't, do you know what I mean? Why you wouldn't follow that? It's pretty simple, to be honest.
Mike Dowling
You've mentioned data, which is good and bad. I mean, I was fascinated last season, I think it was, there was a chat, and obviously we've got Terry Bulliphant, who is very much your old-fashioned scout, talking about the data, going, yeah, yeah, love it. And everyone's like, oh, hang on, we expected him to be against all this stuff. Do you rely on data to to kind of.
Mike Dowling
Start looking at the picture, or do you rely on your eyes and look for the data to back you up, or is it an amalgamation of everything?
Chris
For me, it's probably a combination of all the above. I will never. If I haven't physically seen it with my own eyes. Never, because I've made that because data will give you.
Chris
information and detail. It won't give you all the information and detail. There are certain things that you can't quantify on a spreadsheet. So when somebody can come up with a metric, how big someone's heart and how much character and how courageous they are, their language is like and what they're like as a team in terms of around the building, like when we saw in the canteen and how he was
Chris
a magnet. When a metric forms, then I will make decisions solely on data. But until that happens, I have to stay. So, again, we form decisions for a dozen.
Chris
It's not the deciding factor for me.
Mike Dowling
Yeah, I can. fully back you up on that because I used to run a five-a-side team and we played over 200 games and I had an average points per game of 2.3 which is very very impressive except when you look at my average time on the pitch was about 35 seconds so I only came on when we were different.
Chris
The thing is it's amazing because there's so much context to it
Mike Dowling
so
Chris
yeah for example you could have um you know you you could have a centre-back off the back of a game, come out of the fixture with terrible dual success. It could be awful. Now, that metric can be completely contrasted if he's against Didier Drogba. who's an aerial model, as opposed to Jamie Vardy, who's going to play on the shoulder.
Chris
Now, if he's aerial dual success against Jamie Vardy, the opposition have to kick the ball on top of the back line, isn't the bet. Then you go, oh, maybe that's an issue. Against Didier Drogba, you go, well, actually he gets that level of opponent. two in five might be alright, because that's definitely not the average argument.
Chris
I think there's so much context to it, and I think, as I said, it can have an input, or it helps information, but certainly not for
Mike Dowling
me. I remember I've said this on the pod before, Kevin Keegan years and years ago, I think they'd just played West Ham and they'd beaten them something like 9-0 and West Ham had led a sealing goal. And Keegan came out and was like, that is one of the best goalkeeping displays you will ever see. And the commentators were like, You scored nine past him.
Mike Dowling
He said, how many shots did we have on target? How many did he save? And it turned out they had 54 shots on target. Um, so yeah, he let in nine, but he kept out like 45.
Mike Dowling
So it was like every young player should watch that goalkeeping performance because it's amazing. Now, you've kind of hinted at this. I don't want anything given away because the social media team will get very upset. Are there any squad changes planned?
Mike Dowling
And is there any more staff coming? Because you mentioned Ben doesn't overly like the goalkeeping coach situation. But is there any more changes planned in the future? Or is it we're going to see what happens over the next few weeks?
Chris
In terms of staffing, at the moment we've got our academy goalkeeper coach Clive Offer working with the goalkeepers. He's doing a great job, to be fair. So that's an ongoing situation. Again, we've got goalkeepers that form that decision.
Chris
And in terms of players on the pitch, there were 100. We need it. There's no point, but I'm not going to sit here and try and give you an answer. It's obvious.
Chris
We've conceded six goals in six games. The water's wet. We need to bolster them. Yeah, it's definitely something.
Mike Dowling
And you've made a statement on this and at the manager's meeting that we're not looking at relegation, we're looking upwards and there's no reason why we can't be a team that clicks into gear. Now I was mocked the other day because I'd said we're only 16 points away from the playoffs. I haven't checked this since Saturday and someone was laughing going, come on, that's
Speaker 1
a
Mike Dowling
lot. And I was like, well, we were something like 26 points behind Evsli a few years ago and we beat them to the title and that was at Christmas time. So what. What is the single biggest factor that needs to click for this target to start being ticked off and start picking up these, turning these draws into wins?
Mike Dowling
Yeah, I
Chris
think clean sheet, watertight for sure. I don't think it's one thing, I think it's a combination. As I said, it's the full output of the team. It's players becoming more familiar with our ideas, how we want to play.
Chris
It's the reduction of the squad. So then we're working a smaller group, more contact with the players that are going to be in the building, more repetition. And player recruitment, we need help. We're not where we are.
Chris
I have a real belief that amongst the team, there is a very good team in there. There is a very good team in there. How long that's going to take, that is confident in their capability as what I am, like how they can realise themselves. Gaffer's right.
Chris
And then that will then lead to when you're two-nil up, not blocking off. How long that takes, but in the assessment process up, adding to the group. And again, like I said, we're exceeding far too many goals. Now, as we need to maybe adapt our approach, but I do also look at scoring goals, scoring goals, scoring goals.
Chris
The six things we don't want to do is adapt our approach. The bits that have been very good have been some very good bits. So it's doubling down on what we believed in, and ultimately it's If the personnel in the building can't live up to the expectations, can't change the people. And so from a tactical point of view, as a team, the team is producing some really good stuff.
Chris
But in every game, we've given up some horrendous opportunities. That would be the longest one fact ever in terms of helping us climb.
Mike Dowling
Right. I need to be clear, I can't do this, but if I could give you three immediate wishes across the club, not just on the pitch, what would those three wishes be?
Chris
Oh, that's a hell of a question. Do you know what would be nice? I've walked through the door back in June 2025, where we had a pre-season and six, seven weeks to give us a lead into the National League campaign, probably a big one. Warm showers?
Chris
That's right. The showers are warm. Oh, OK. They're fixed.
Chris
The dryers are as well. They got fixed. Do you know what? We're really enthusiastic about the situation.
Chris
We're really...
Mike Dowling
We'll come back to it another day. Yeah. Yeah. And this is such management speak.
Mike Dowling
And I do apologize. What would success look like three years from now? So we're sitting down to talk three years from now. What do you sit back and go?
Mike Dowling
That was successful. Is it your style of play? Is it the results or something different?
Chris
Yeah. That would be it. Yeah.
Mike Dowling
Excellent. And now. Here's some quickfire questions. There is no kind of rhyme or reason for this, so it's just what people have asked.
Mike Dowling
OK, what manager, past or present, would you like to sit down and have a coffee with or something stronger? It doesn't have to be coffee.
Chris
Well. Can I pick three? If you like. Johan Cruyff.
Chris
Terry Venable. and Diego Maradona.
Mike Dowling
Oh, blimey. That's a party, isn't it?
Chris
Well, the Diego Maradona one is as much party as it is
Mike Dowling
football. Yeah, absolutely. What's your preferred holiday destination? Yours, not your wife's, yours.
Chris
We went to Penang in Malaysia. That was amazing. I'd definitely go there again.
Mike Dowling
And what music are you into and does that get played in the dressing room or do you have to listen to whatever nonsense?
Chris
Depends on the mood, you know. I've got quite a broad taste. I've been listening to quite a lot of music recently. I don't know, it generally depends on the move.
Chris
I've been known for a bit of a Clearwater revival, I like that. Yeah, it's all over the place to be honest because I also listen to a lot of
Mike Dowling
I'm with you. I've got ridiculous, like, grime music and then it slips into Irish music and all sorts. I'm like, this is the weirdest Spotify list ever and then I realise it's mine.
Chris
So... Binnie Joel to Storms.
Mike Dowling
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think it should be favourite meal, but they've put it as death row meal. I don't know why you're on death row, but there you
Chris
go. Yeah. I like a curry.
Mike Dowling
Yeah. What's been your favourite ground that you've managed at? Obviously, that's Ganderqueen Lane. Apart from Ganderqueen Lane, what favourite ground have you managed at?
Chris
Torquay United was good. Is that because of the result
Mike Dowling
or because you like the ground?
Chris
The ground was very good. The atmosphere was great and we were very good. I enjoyed it as well because of the result. Watched out away.
Mike Dowling
Yeah,
Chris
yeah, but. Probably the Amex.
Mike Dowling
OK,
Chris
yeah. Obviously, yeah.
Mike Dowling
You can either pick a coach you've gone up against or a specific player that you've managed against. Who's been your most difficult opponent?
Chris
Uh, as a coach, um, he's actually working at Chelsea now. Um, guy called Harry Hudson. He was a Whiteleys. This is Alan McFarland.
Chris
Um, they, they had our number, right? That they, uh, they forced They forced us to adapt more than any other. Yeah. We did beat them a few times, but it's a manner that was a big departure from what we've become known for.
Chris
But that's the important point, because I'll do whatever it takes to win. Genuinely, that is the basis of our approach is we believe it's the best way to win. If we felt 80 yards and squeezing and picking up first and second forward, it's the best way to win those games. We ended up having to do that against Curry's teams.
Chris
And in terms of player Do you know Jordan Young? He was at Yovo as well. They're the sort of players that when they get the ball, there is a position
Mike Dowling
manager thinking, this is a problem.
Chris
It's a good question, but to be fair it's a complicated one amongst the staff. because I'm constantly checking and challenging the best strategy to defend the corner kick and bits and pieces like that. But he's got a... he was on a previous coach and one of the tutors was like an expert at pieces apart from himself.
Chris
he produced data and the best clean sheets to not get exploited from volume of players and those two even players up. And also I know Arsenal because of the power they'd rather have space to counter into the post, leave players up, drag players back, and then you're playing in to then set. carrying the ball up the pitch with 100 metres of space.
Mike Dowling
Yeah. And if we've got, when he's got his confidence back, we've got Nadas flying and David flying, then we can do that. Were you surprised at the injury list that we inherited? Or was it expected at a club?
Chris
No. Having seen This is ruthless, but it's honest. Having seen the work that the lads have done, it's all.
Mike Dowling
Okay. This is an early one, but if you had to pick one thing about club in general, however you want to take that, that you'd want to protect and one thing you'd like to evolve, what would they be?
Chris
Protect supporters. 100%. I genuinely, I'm not just saying that to get a decent job. Genuinely, the support is important.
Chris
And Evolve, it would be the support for more of it.
Mike Dowling
The very next question is the last one for you. Be pleased to have some dinner now. How important are the fans and what is your final message for them? What do you want from them?
Mike Dowling
Yes, you guys are providing entertainment, you're providing everything, but what do you want from us as well and how important are the fans? Genuinely,
Chris
after the game was bad, I was So obviously it's the first loss, so the intention for me to go over to the supporters and clap because I'm thinking, oh, nobody likes losing. We've thrown away a two goal lead. It's been a horrendous second half. We're in a bit of a situation.
Chris
So you've got those things floating around in your head. What sort of reception are we going to get? And genuinely, it was amazing. Keep going, Aggie.
Chris
You'll get there. Keep working hard. We believe in you. That's support.
Chris
That's support. Genuinely, what we get as a team, Again, this isn't a fan vote comment. It's our responsibility to produce a level of performance that we do that consistently. Well, that target of three years lead, well, that's the least we'll do.
Mike Dowling
You don't want them to be making up a song for you of Aggie Do or Aggie, Aggie, Aggie or what, nothing like that, no?
Chris
I'm sure there'll be plenty of songs.
Mike Dowling
Well, we're going to wrap up this episode of Sutton United Talk Time on podcast. As always, appreciate everyone's attention and feedback. Follow, like, and share this episode at Sutton Podcast on social medias. Subscribe, give me the little thumbs up.
Mike Dowling
You know that boosts my ego. Big thank you to Chris for your time. I know you've been working
Speaker 1
hard all
Mike Dowling
day. You've had a long journey home, stuck in traffic, and you're just desperate for your dinner. And thank you to all the listeners. I hope you enjoyed this episode.
Mike Dowling
Take care, and we'll catch up soon. Bye-bye.
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