Mike:
Hello and welcome to another special episode of Sutton United Talk Time on Podcast. It's the Sutton Podcast. I'm your host, Mike, and we're in association with Lucky Star Gin. As usual, I am delighted to be joined by a returning guest, friend of the show—I'm not sure what title to give this—but please welcome Paul Brunson.
Paul:
Hello, fan of the show!
Mike:
Fan of the show—oh, that's even more pressure.
Let me know what you think of the episode. Do the likes, shares, retweets, and comments on social media. Give us a thumbs up on YouTube—all the usual stuff. And thank you to those who already do that. As you can see, I've left my little cubby hole. I'm out of my comfort zone. We're in the boardroom for now. We're probably going to get kicked out as soon as someone realises.
Paul:
Well, actually, I've got some news. You won't get kicked out. Do you know why?
Mike:
Oh, why's that?
Paul:
I've become co-owner of the club. So, you can't get kicked out? Marvellous. You're with me.
Mike:
Really? Excellent.
Paul:
Yeah.
Mike:
When did that happen?
Paul:
This has just happened within the last month. Depending on when you publish this, I don’t know if we’re public yet, but as of right now, we’re not yet public. But yes, it’s happened within the last month or so. However, it’s been in the works for quite some time.
Mike:
Marvellous. Do you remember a couple of months ago when we spoke and I said you seem to be living life as a Sutton fan on fast forward?
Paul:
Yes.
Mike:
Did you think that was a challenge? Did you think, "I can step this up a bit"?
Paul:
No, no. Mike, this time last year, I never would have thought I would even have been on a football podcast. But the fact that we are sitting here in this position is just a testament to how life takes us in all kinds of different directions. I always say, try to surf the waves of life, and that's what I'm trying to do.
Mike:
Marvellous. So, you said you listened to the show. You obviously didn’t listen to the one with Garry where he talked about investment and return on investments, and you went, "Yeah, I’ll chuck in some money to Sutton as well."
Paul:
One is, and Garry is great—Garry’s become a friend. From an investment standpoint, I look at football clubs like art. There was a great piece in The Economist not too long ago that showed if you look at the valuations of these clubs, you can look at it in one of two ways: emotional attachment and the emotion it brings you, or the financial reward. Let’s look at the emotional side. Right here, off camera, my son is sitting here. Just to be able to participate in a football club and have my son walk around the pitch—that’s priceless for him. The emotion that comes back to me for that is what’s most valuable. What I know is going to happen at the club—the emotion from the fans, from the players—is also valuable. That overrides any potential financial reward. But I also think it’s an asset. My first career was in investment banking, and so I understand why you see a significant number of investors trying to get into clubs and be part of it.
Mike:
And just to clarify, I mean, I have four shares in the club, so I’m a part-owner. I’m assuming your shares are slightly more than four?
Paul:
Yes.
Mike:
Okay, fair enough. Because there will be a lot of people saying, "Well, I’m a part-owner, why don’t I get on the podcast?"
Paul:
This is true. It is many more than four.
Mike:
Good, good, good. So aside from the emotional side, what was the tipping point? What was the motivation to say, "Yeah, you know what? I’m going to do this."
Paul:
A couple of things happened. One is the embrace that I got from everyone—you, so many of the fans. I’ll actually put team ownership aside, but I truly felt embraced. As you said, it was fast forward; every time I come here, I feel like I’m at home. I feel comfortable. That was part of it. The second thing is that I thoroughly enjoyed building a friendship with the existing owners. A lot of similarities, not just in our values, but also in what we’d like to see happen. That alignment is key because I think you should have shared values with all your partners, whether professional or romantic. So there was that aspect. I also started doing a round of heavy diligence. I started talking to people about why they have reservations about going to football matches. What could be changed to motivate them? Lastly, I looked at how popular English football has become abroad and how it’s growing in popularity. I believe there’s a trend towards non-Premier League teams because of the community aspect, and all of that spoke to me.
Mike:
You mentioned documentaries. We could have a documentary, you know?
Paul:
I will say I am in the television business.
Mike:
So, how do you see your role adding value to what we have? You talked about values—how are you going to add value to what we’ve got?
Paul:
My full-time job is as a television presenter and also in media. I think that’s a piece where I can bring value. Whenever I’m doing one of my projects, I can now talk about Sutton. When it comes to any type of entity, you want as many mentions as possible. So, I think I will be able to significantly increase the amount of Sutton mentions, not just in the UK but abroad, and that’s going to be helpful to the club. More recognition, more people interested in merchandise, more people interested in coming when they visit London. "Let me find this South London team to come see." So, there’s value associated with that. I think I can also help on the commercial aspect—helping to bring more revenue into the club, which is incredibly important for all of us. And then, from a fan standpoint, I feel at home when I’m here. I want more people to be able to feel this same feeling. I want to help increase the number of fans and the diversity of the fans, which is incredibly important. When I look at the community of Sutton, I see it’s incredibly diverse—in terms of age, ethnicity, religion, even nationality. So, to be able to increase that diversity or help increase that diversity, those are all things I think I can do. The area I know is not me is football knowledge. I know very little about football. So, I’ll stay away from that. I’ll be doing this on the side. I think it’s to pick the areas where I know I can help add value and stick to those.
Mike:
Okay. And now you’ve done some acting—it was acting earlier, by the way, everyone—no training? No training at all, and available for parties!
But now you’ve done something, I’m sure Jack will be calling you to get involved with some of the signings or some of his social media posts. I’ll give you his number—you can block him now.
I was told, and it’s something I didn’t actually believe until a week ago, maybe a few days ago, there are very few black owners in football. And you’re part of a very small circle. I mean, they’re not bad names that I’ve got—if true, I haven’t checked all of this—not bad names. I think it’s LeBron James, who has done something with a bouncy ball, and Michael B. Jordan……And yourself.
Paul:
Yes.
Mike:
Yes. As a football newcomer, why do you think that is? I mean, football is such a diverse sport with so many different people. Have you got any thoughts on why there aren’t many black owners?
Paul:
We could talk for days about this one. This was one of the motivations. You know, it’s interesting—you know how shocked you were when you heard there are potentially only three black owners. By the way, I’ve continued to do research on this. I’ve talked to two organisations and two former renowned footballers here in the UK and asked them that exact question. Their response was, "Paul, there are only three of you now."
When you say that, most people are shocked. They’re like, "How could this be? This doesn’t make any sense." But when you begin to look at the percentage of managers, board members, and even fans outside of the Premier League relative to the percentage of players of colour—specifically black—you begin to see there’s a massive gap. Massive gap. So, I think it’s both a flex to say, "Hey, it’s me, LeBron, and Michael Jordan," but at the same time, it’s sad.
And it stretches beyond just black ownership. If you look at gender, sexuality, all these areas that create the beautiful fabric of the world, you realise we don’t have strong representation in the English football pyramid. So, I’m incredibly happy and proud that the team, community, and ownership welcomed me, and I hope we serve as a model for other teams.
Mike:
I’m slightly older, and I grew up with the kind of first wave of black players coming through—second wave, really, because I knew the older guys. But then the younger guys coming through, especially at Arsenal, it was really strong. I didn’t really know much about it until I started reading their books and stuff. And it’s even now, it’s just like, "That can’t be right." I was told it, and I was like, "No, that’s wrong. We need to go back and check this." But this is everyone—it’s like, "No, no, it can’t be." And then you go back, you check, and you say, "My gosh, it’s checking out."
Paul:
But even to stretch, because we’re talking about black ownership, part of the research I did was talking to black families in and around London. I asked one simple question: "Have you gone to a local match?" They said, "Okay, you’ve been to a Premier League match, but have you gone to a local one?" It wasn’t eight out of ten; it wasn’t nine out of ten. It was 100% who said there was a level of fear in going to a local match. And I would ask, "What was the fear?" The fear was, "I feel as if I could be verbally assaulted, my family could be verbally assaulted, or we’re going to feel uncomfortable." And I said, "Well, being the naive American, where does that come from?"
And what was interesting is, I think a lot of it comes from the brand. The brand of it. Are there inappropriate words and behaviours happening? Absolutely. Let’s call a thing a thing—it is happening throughout England and the world. But the question is, well, if you are, say, a family in their early fifties with a ten-year-old son, they’re fearful of taking him to a match because of what might happen. And I said, "Where does that come from?" They said, "Because when I grew up, this is the way it was." And I said, "Have you been to a match recently?" They said, "No, this is just the way it was when I grew up, and this is how I remember it." And I said, "Okay, this is an opportunity to say, you know what? Things have changed. Do they need to continue to change? Yes, but part of that change is going to be you coming."
It’s a tense topic, but it’s a topic we need to confront because when you look at the UK, it’s changing drastically, and the players have changed with the makeup of the population. But what hasn’t changed at the same rate are all these things we’re talking about—ownership, management, even fans.
Mike:
Yeah. I mean, obviously, I’m hugely, hugely biased, and I watch the game, so I think, well, everyone would be welcome. But then anyone standing in my spot where it used to be, but they’ve given it to the away fans now—thanks, Tim—they would have got some abuse, but not for any reason other than that’s my spot. Get out. But yeah, I’ve had this conversation with Sarah from Her Game Too as well. Most of us are so blinkered watching the match, we don’t know what’s going on ten yards away because we’re concentrating there. So when someone says, "Oh, this happened," well, that wouldn’t happen because it’s your feeling of, "This is my club. I don’t want that to happen, therefore I’m not going to see it." So hopefully, people will feel welcome at Sutton—I always want them to feel welcome. And they’ve all got money, so bring the money.
Paul:
No, no, I fully believe Sutton is incredibly warm. And by the way, that’s not just me saying that. I’ve been to a few matches, and seeing those who have come with me walk away from me and mix it up with the crowd, see how warm and friendly everyone has been to them—Sutton is incredibly welcoming.
Mike:
Good. So have you—obviously, it’s early days—had any specific duties yet, or have you taken my advice and kept your hand down, not volunteered for anything?
Paul:
I see that if you just put a pinky up, then a lot comes your way, so I’m trying to keep it on the low. I did participate in helping with the new design of the kit. I have also been working on something really special that we’re rolling out on September 21 called the Amber Army 100 initiative, which is about increasing the number of fans we have here. These are two things that I’ve worked on. There are a few others that—and I promise you, Mike, anytime I have hot news before I go public, I’m going to come to you.There’s something else too that I think will be of high value that I’m working on
Mike:
Okay.. We’re going to talk about both the shirt and the Amber Army 100, but do you have a five-year plan, or do you see your role evolving in the next five years?
Paul:
At the end of the day, we have a chairman, we have a CEO of the team, and my role is to play as a team player. It’s to do as is suggested to me. So if there are areas identified where I can help, then I’ll pick up the phone and help. That’s how I see my role with the team.
Mike:
Perfect. You’ve led us on nicely to the shirt design. What was your process? How did that come about, and what was the design process like?
Paul:
I’ve long been fashion fanatical. What’s interesting is that I probably know more about kits than I do about football. I’ve always worn various kits and been a fan of the fashion in football. With the Sutton home kit, one thing that always stood out to me is the shield from the borough of Sutton. It’s 126 years old, which is mad to say. But what always stands out to me—and to you too, I’m sure—is the coat of arms with the Poppin Jay.
Mike:
The Poppin Jay, absolutely.
Paul:
We have undervalued the Poppin Jay because not many people realise this—the Poppin Jay is one of the smartest, not just birds, but animals. If I were to say Poppin Jay or owl, who would you say is smarter?
Mike:
I would have said owl.
Paul:
Everyone would go with owl, you know, because they’re wise. But no, owls are actually not wise—they are quite dumb.
Mike:
This is his opinion.
Paul:
No, no, this is fact. I’m a researcher. Owls are not wise. This is a myth. The Poppin Jay, slash parrot, is incredibly intelligent. So I was like, "Okay, the Poppin Jay is undervalued." How can we specifically use this as our motivation? When you look at the design of the kit, what stands out to most people is that we actually have feathers. And they’re not just any feathers—they’re amber feathers.
Do you know symbolically what an amber feather means?
Mike:
No, go on.
Paul:
It’s deep. An amber feather means transition and elevation. What are we trying to do as a team? We’re moving up—we’re going back to the EFL. So there’s that. Also, do you remember the 2018 Nigerian kit? It was considered one of the best-designed kits, and that was part of the motivation behind ours too. The dissolved collar, the dissolved sleeves, modern flow. Even if you look at the badge, I’ve seen some people say, "I love the kit, but I wish the badge would stand out more." Part of the idea was to say, "Let the athlete speak for the team. Let’s take a step back and let the athlete speak." The other part with the badge is that it’s not fully embroidered, which means it’s lighter. So from a functional standpoint, this could be—Jack would have to confirm it—but it could be one of the lightest kits we’ve ever had. So, for all of those reasons, I think it’s turned out beautifully.
Mike:
You’ve answered the next six questions there! The badge, yes—there was quite a lot of talk about it. It’s quite discreet. You mentioned it’s to make the athlete stand out. I personally love it, not just because you’re here, but because it’s a little throwback to when we were little old Sutton, not such big-time. People saw the kit and were like, "Well, who’s that?" and you got a chance to talk to people about Sutton. That’s why I kind of liked that part. I wasn’t expecting such a nice detail, so I thought you were just going to say, "I like feathers." But what was the process? Did you just go, "Oh yeah, that’ll do," and someone else picks up the slack, or were you involved in each step of the design as well?
Paul:
No, there’s a full-on process that goes into it. O’Neill’s is the partner, and they have a phenomenal design team. What happens is it’s essentially an iteration of calls where we’re expressing ideas, and there are different members of the club on these calls and emails, expressing ideas. The O’Neill’s design team comes back to us with various designs, and then we go back. So, it’s this iterative process that happens, and it took quite some time.
Mike:
I wasn’t looking in this direction when you said you’re really into fashion, so I didn’t see if there were any eye rolls over there! But is it something you want to or would like to get more involved with—potentially doing some more casual stuff? Because there isn’t really. I have to print my own stuff. Is it something you would like to get involved in, or consider getting involved in doing more merchandise?
Paul:
Absolutely. Merchandise is a huge revenue line for many other clubs, but it’s also a great branding opportunity. Having someone walking around in New York City with Sutton merch on is a massive branding opportunity for us. So, absolutely.
Mike:
I’ve never really got that, because here in the UK, lots of people wear shirts with New York City or Boston or something across it, and it’s like, I can’t imagine someone in New York wearing a shirt that says Sutton. You know?
Paul:
Not only do I believe it’s going to happen, I predict it’s going to happen.
Mike:
Perfect. Could the club say, "You know what, we’ve done this now, but someone else has got involved," and run a competition with fans to design a shirt at some point in the future?
Paul:
Yeah. So, you know what’s interesting on that is, for my business, I have a team. And someone on my team pulled up different Sutton badges, and I said, "Where did you get these badges from?" She said, "There are people online who are literally just saying, ‘I wish I could change the crest to this or this,’ for all teams." And I thought, "That’s brilliant." So, to be able to crowdsource design ideas, to crowdsource food ideas, whatever the idea is, I think that’s very important.
Mike:
Okay, so onto the Amber Army 100 initiative—can you give us a little more detail? What was it that kind of inspired you to start it?
Paul:
Sure, absolutely. A significant part of my investment is going towards this initiative. The idea is to allow people who have never attended a Sutton match to experience how beautiful it is here. That’s it, in short. And I think the more that we’re able to do that, the more fans we’re going to create, and the larger our Amber Army is going to be.
Mike:
So, who is going to benefit? Who are we targeting with this?
Paul:
It’s anyone who’s not attended a Sutton game. It could be someone who lives in Sutton and has just never made it down. It could be someone who lives outside—I live about 35 minutes away, almost in Crystal Palace territory. It could be someone who lives slightly outside who’s never attended. It could be someone who has been fearful of attending their local match, so they come. It could be someone who is visiting London, like a good friend of mine who’s an actress in LA, visiting this week, who has never seen a real football match. It’s for her. So, it is for essentially everyone who has not yet attended.
Mike:
Okay, so it’s not just kids—it’s adults too?
Paul:
Exactly.
Mike:
Does it include anything else other than free tickets, or are there other things in that programme?
Paul:
I think it’s going to be an experiment. So even right now, I was walking around the pitch to say, "Okay, where could the Amber Army be?" The idea is to create an experience that’s unforgettable. I always want to recreate what I got when I came. We could have lost. It just so happened we won. We won, so things were better, but we could have lost. And the experience alone sold me on Sutton. If we can help recreate an experience that is unforgettable, I think we’re going to grow our base.
Mike:
When we spoke before, you mentioned your background and how you got started in the dating thing. We’ve seen so many underprivileged kids. Is that something you’re looking to do eventually in Sutton—work with those kids?
Paul:
Absolutely. I want us to grow and to look like the borough of Sutton. I think we should reflect the community, and to be able to have more people who live in the community here, I think is fundamentally important. And it’s not just important right now—I think it’s important for all sports clubs in terms of the viability of the future of that club.
Mike:
I remember speaking to someone from Mansfield, and their local doctors had the power to prescribe two, three, four, five matches because they recognised that going to these group events was a really positive experience. So, they’d give them things and the club would say, "Yeah, come on in, come on in." Lots of little things like that.
Paul:
On that note, I’ve been coming back and forth to the club, like today, and the last time I was here, we were actually in this room and one of the players was here. We had different people here, and I went around the room asking, "Why? Why are you into football? Why do you play? Why do you watch it? Why are you a super fan?" And you know what? Everyone said the same thing. I wonder if this is the case for you. Everyone said it was one of the only ways they could talk to their father.
Mike:
Yes. Not the only way, but yeah, I would imagine so.
Paul:
This is what a roomful of men said, right? In other words, it was a way for them to talk to their father, and they said it was the only way. From a therapeutic, emotional, supportive place—from a place of love—you see how fundamental a football club could be.
Mike:
You’ve mentioned values—what does this kind of initiative show about our values? What does it mean to us as a club?
Paul:
Family values—I think that stands out. You see in so many of the kits, "South London" and "family." I think family is incredibly important. There is a level of ambition. There’s a true David and Goliath story going on, right? And we’re not Goliath. There’s a hunger and a desire, but I equate that to ambition, and I see ambition as a value. Many people are not ambitious, but I see that there’s a level of ambition. So, I think ambition is another value. Within family, inclusivity is a key value here at the club. Ambition, inclusivity, family—these are core values represented in the club.
Mike:
How can we, standing on the terraces at home, walking around, how can we help get involved? Is there anything we can do?
Paul:
Oh, man, this is a great one. Just step up the activity. Social is massive. I’m not just saying this because he’s here, but I think Jack and everyone working on social has done phenomenal. The difference in the storytelling we’re doing on social is just really, really good. So, what does that mean? It means engaging with the content. Because I’m a fan of the show, I heard Jack on the show, and something he said was brilliant. Most people wouldn’t agree with it, but I do. He said, "Even if you have something negative to say, comment on it. Give your opinion." I think transparency is a value of the club, and I think that through what we’re doing on social, we’re beginning to show how important that is. So, engaging on social is very important. The right amount of engagement can take one piece of content and instead of 5,000 people seeing it, 500,000 people can see it. So, engaging with all the content is very important—that’s one. Secondly, is actively asking what can be done, and sometimes not even waiting, but just taking the initiative to do it. I’m not going to try to gas you up, but you’re a great example of this.
Mike:
No, no, no, but…
Paul:
But you are, and everyone knows this. Did you ask permission to do this podcast?
Mike:
No.
Paul:
Okay, that’s what I’m saying—just do it. Did you ask permission to create the Sutton United Talk Time on Podcast?
Mike:
Well, this was my one. I’ve got another one at home which definitely didn’t ask permission from us or Superdry to be fair. So
Paul:
So you just created it. I think that’s part of it too—just create. We’re all part of a family, so it’s like ask for forgiveness later. Just create. So, just do it. I think that’s another part of it.
Mike:
And also on the South London football family, I think a few of us owe an apology to Jack because all of us were like, "What the hell are you on about? That’s rubbish." So, sorry, Jack.
What does success look like in this programme? How are you going to measure it? How are you going to say, "Yep, I enjoyed that," and is it a one, two, five-year thing?
Paul:
So, there are a whole bunch of KPIs we’ve set out. One is I have hired someone to just work on this project. That’s how near and dear it is to me. Her name is Natalia. One KPI is going to be the number of people coming to the matches through the project. That’s important. The second is going to be their experience. And I think the third is going to be how we’ve been able to convert fans. There are different mechanisms we’re using to see how they convert into a fan. There are a lot of theories on what constitutes a fan, and I think if we’ve reached the point where we can place someone in that camp, then we’ve won. And remember, a fan can live in LA, right? A fan can live in Manchester, but we would love to see more fans in South London.
Mike:
It’s fairly similar, though not quite the same, to what Harry is doing with the foundation. He’s doing a lot of outreach. Is there any crossover there?
Paul:
Yeah, so it’s interesting. Natalia’s already had a long conversation with Harry, and there’s a lot of—my friend hates the word synergy, but in this case, it’s appropriate—there’s a lot of synergy between what we’re doing. Harry’s already shared a massive list with us of organisations we can reach out to. Firefighters, police officers, people who work for the community in hospitals. But absolutely, there’s a lot there.
Mike:
We’re going to wrap it up soon, just a few more. What excites you the most about your future with the club as an owner or a creator as well? What’s the thing you’re most excited about?
Paul:
All the wins. All the wins. I think this is part of it—it’s like, okay, we’re all smart people, you know, and we understand. There’s a business side, but we want to win. So, there’s nothing—and this is how I know football is in my blood—there’s nothing like a win. It changes your whole week, doesn’t it?
Mike:
Absolutely, yeah. It changes your whole week.
Paul:
So, I’m looking forward to that feeling.
Mike:
Definitely. So, you’ve hinted, but are there any projects outside of the previous two that you can give us a sneaky peek at yet, or…?
Paul:
I’m working under secret. Know that I’m working.
When we were negotiating everything and I was talking to Ben and Garry, I remember them saying, "It’s addictive to the point where…" Because I said, "What I would like to do is I would like to be able to support but just spend about five hours or so a week."
Mike:
You should have spoken to me—I would have told you that’s impossible.
Paul:
It’s impossible. I was like, "Oh my gosh, I’m now dedicating hours upon hours upon hours." So, yeah.
Mike:
My small scale—it was like this. I was like, "You know what? I’ll do a chat with some people after a match. How much time could that take?" Suddenly, every day…
What is the one thing you’d like fans to know about you and your vision for the club? Not the club’s vision, but your vision. And it doesn’t have to be something that will happen—it can be as wild as you like.
Paul:
I want to win, and I want to increase the brand of the club. I think everyone wins that way.
Mike:
Perfect. Well, we mentioned social media and how important it is, so we will wrap up with a little soundbite. What message would you like to give to the Sutton United fans, the Amber Army, to close out? What do you want from them?
Paul:
I would say thank you for welcoming me and my family because my boys—I bring my boys all the time—they have loved it. So, I say thank you for doing that. Continue to do that. And when we talked about how you can get involved, it’s please, social media, starting initiatives. We are a family, but we only grow as a family when we’re all engaged.
Mike:
Perfect. That’s an excellent place to stop. Thank you very much, Paul.
Paul:
Thank you.
Mike:
Thank you, everyone, for your eartention. Please give us your feedback. Like, share this episode. Let me know what you liked, didn’t like, and what you’d like to see me do again. I’m available for bookings for acting if you want—no training, very reasonable rates. Thank you for your time. Paul, thanks again. Take care, and we’ll see you all soon.
Paul:
Thank you. Bye.
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