Six months. That is all it has taken for Chris Agutter to completely reshape how Sutton United view themselves.
What started as a rescue job has quickly turned into something much bigger. Not just survival. Not just steadying the ship. But a full diagnosis of what Sutton are and what they need to become.
The soft start is over. Now comes the real work.
Mike Dowling
Hello and welcome to the last episode of Sutton United Talk Time on podcast. It's the Sutton podcast in association with Lucky Star Gym. Actually, sorry, of the season. You haven't got rid of me.
Chris
It's of this season, episode number 46, I believe. If you are a regular listener, thank you.
Mike Dowling
And if you're a new listener, where have you been? But you're very, very welcome. I'm your host, Mike. And before we start, I would like to thank each and every one of you for listening.
Mike Dowling
and also for the support I've had over the last few months, which have been quite tricky personally. I am very, very grateful for all the love and support, even if I run away when you're giving it. Today, I'm catching up with Agafa, who is now six months up. It's not a parole board.
Mike Dowling
This is a sentence you got. We love hearing from you. Join the conversation, stay connected, share your thoughts on the episodes, chat with fans, let me know what you'd like to hear. We're on all social media platforms at Sutton Podcast.
Mike Dowling
Likes, shares and comments really do help us grow and reach Sutton United fans. And a big shout out to all the awesome listeners who engage and share, retweet and all the rest and make the show awesome. Thank you very much. So Chris, Aggie, have you had a chance?
Mike Dowling
I mean, it's been a fairly full on six months. You had a chance to stop and reflect yet? Or I mean, it'll be a very short episode if you haven't. But have you had a chance?
Chris
Yeah, it's, it's been a whirlwind. It's been the biggest challenge that So this is the fourth managerial job I've had over sort of a 10 year period. It's definitely been the biggest challenge. I think I think I'm definitely a better manager now than what I was six months ago because of the challenge.
Chris
And I think that's a feeling that is shared amongst all the staff. And I think ultimately the last six months has given us a crash course in everything Sutton United, everything National League and has given us a brilliant platform to to build from. That's the biggest feeling and takeaway. as well as obviously the supporters and the welcome we've had.
Chris
I've said that a number of times, but I keep saying it because I genuinely believe it. That's been the biggest reflection or couple of reflections is the backing that we've got from the fans, even in the difficult moments, because there's been a few, how they've stood with us. And ultimately, it gives us a huge motivation to, you know, on top of our own individual goals and what we want to do for Sutton United. One of the biggest motivations is trying to build on this last six months for the supporters and get a team out there that I think they deserve.
Chris
So, yeah, it's been exciting, emotional and ultimately, I think it will prove successful in terms of the bigger picture.
Mike Dowling
Beautiful. Well, luckily, some of those I'm going to go deeper on as we talk. But when you first came in, you acknowledged that jobs like this don't come up very often if everything's going well. First of all, for me, that was like, oh yeah, Sutton are a big club, because obviously coming the other way, we're like, oh, it's always a small club.
Mike Dowling
But as you said, we're a big club and they don't come up if everything's going well. When you started, as they say, poking about under the bonnet, Were things better or slightly worse than you had expected at the time?
Chris
Um, the first few weeks is very much trying to understand why, um, the team was where they were at in the league. Um, unfortunately in the first couple of weeks, we quickly figured out why that was. Um, understanding why perhaps the club has dropped out of the Football League and why it hasn't bounced straight back as well. That was probably, do we have the answers to that?
Chris
We think we do. But I say think because, you know, nothing's definite, but you have your feeling. And that was some conclusions that we come to after being in the building a little bit longer. Because to be honest, when you're coming in mid-season, it's very much the next game's on top of you.
Chris
So you don't have a huge amount of time to look at the bigger picture as a whole, but obviously the more time you spend in the building, the more games you play, the more clear weeks you have, Saturday, Saturday weeks, you start to look at the bigger picture. And again, yeah, you feel like you start to understand why we were where we were and what ultimately what we needed to do to get out of it.
Mike Dowling
And did anything surprise you more than others? Were you, I remember at the time you were mentioning fitness, did anything surprise you more than something else or wasn't quite as you thought it would be when you were sold the job? I'm not saying people sold you a bad one, but it was maybe people didn't realise.
Chris
Until you work with people like players, you're obviously part of the process of talking to the board about the job and Uh, you obviously review and assess the players and the playing staff and you have an idea on what you think they're capable off and what you can do with them. Um, but it's not really until you work with the players and you see how close you get the real, um, the real clear picture on the situation. So, um, for example, Hayden Muller being out on loan, we didn't envisage him being part of our plans because as far as we were concerned, he was out of the building because he was deemed surplus to requirements in relation to the rest of the squad.
Chris
So you put two and two together and you think, well, the only reason really lads go out on loan is if they're younger, it's to gain a little bit of experience in preparation for the bigger picture. Or if they're a more established player, it's normally because they're surplus to requirements. But then when you get Hayden in training and you see that he's one of our best players, it's Yeah. So you have a, you have a picture, but that doesn't really come to life and you don't get the reality until you're working with the player.
Chris
So, um, the, yeah, some of the players changed our initial position on, on where we thought they were at either good or bad after working with them. Um, Also the general condition of the squad, like I said, it was, well, in the first month that we were in the building and we considered this a soft start in terms of how we work, the physical load in comparison with previous months had increased 130%. And we were, as I said, conscious of a soft start. Um, so we probably didn't appreciate the benchmark or the physical benchmark that was set.
Chris
And then what, what you then saw as a result of that increase in load was December, January, where we got utterly obliterated by injuries. Um, so that was something that really surprised us. Um, One thing that was interesting, and so I've been fortunate that over the previous three jobs, so over that sort of 10 years of managing, if we had a run of five games, generally we'd win three and you'd maybe drop points in a couple. Sometimes you win five out of five, sometimes you win four out of five and what shocked me, not shocked me because that's a bit severe, but what I was surprised at was Sutton United Football League Club has had massive success.
Chris
If you look at the past 15 years, it's been far, far, far more success than disappointment. And I was surprised at the acceptance of win one, lose a couple, draw a couple, rinse repeat. I really struggle with that because my reference point is and I'm delighted that that is my reference point as a manager is like if you don't win three out of five, that's a bad run. But also from a staff perspective, from a player perspective, there was a, when we won a couple of games, it was like, oh, this is, you know, we're on good form here.
Chris
And we were obviously new staff coming into the building. We were a bit like, this is nowhere near where we need it to be. So I think that that was something that surprised us. And that's a mentality that we've had to shift or try to shift.
Chris
Now you either do that by the people changing, or you change the people. And that's a process that we're obviously going through and have been going for over the last six months.
Mike Dowling
Okay, well, actually, you've touched there on the next question. The results picked up and everyone's like, oh, here we go. We've cracked it now. The question was, were you feeling that?
Mike Dowling
Or were you thinking that we were getting away with it a little bit? And you've kind of said that you would know this isn't right. So what what were these fine margins that we were getting these results? But you were still kind of in the background going, we still need to do better.
Mike Dowling
And what were the warning signs for you?
Chris
My feeling was, was if we could get that It was generally sort of 12, 13 players that if you reflect on the last six months, generally when we've got those 12, 13 players out on the pitch, we've won. My feeling was, if we can keep them out there, we can 100% be that team that potentially goes on a brilliant run and makes a late push. But the concern was, if we can't get that team out there, the drop-off might be steep. Because, again, with those 12, 13 players, we were winning games by a single goal, playing really well, beating some top teams like Halifax, who won the best sides in the league.
Chris
Not just beating them, but really good level of performance. But again, the margins were small. You're not beating teams out of sight, 3-4-0. And we felt these are our best 12, 13, maybe 14 players, and they are right at it.
Chris
And we're winning games. I think we won six out of seven at one point in November. But there was always a feeling of, we need to strengthen squad-wise, but Again, we had 30 players in the building and that not only comes at a logistical cost in terms of training pitch with 30 players, keeping 30 players happy, morale, atmosphere around the building. But that also comes at a financial cost.
Chris
If you got 30,000 in the building, it's going to weigh heavy. And that was one of the things that we were brought in to address without going into too much detail. We needed to make sure that the expectations that were set, very fair expectations from the board, they were being met as opposed to not. So, these are all things that were factoring into that feeling of we're on a roll, we're doing well, if we can keep this group out there, great.
Chris
But if we can't, I'm not sure about the depth of the squad. But to improve the depth of the squad, you need to get players out of the building. But to get players out of the building, do you know what I mean? It's like a, it's a real jigsaw puzzle.
Chris
So, and again, I'm, I learned this in my first season in management. We got to a playoff semi-final and lost to a 119th minute penalty. And I really celebrated every single win. and I enjoyed every single win.
Chris
You know, I got to the end of that season and I just had this feeling of losing a playoff semi-final, this feeling of all of that was for nothing. Now, I know that's not right, but that's how it felt at the time. So, I've always, off the back of that difficult experience, I've always gone Yeah, great. We've won six in a row, but we need to win seven.
Chris
We need to win 30 games. For example, we lost a league title at Worthing by a single point last season. We won 28 games or whatever it was. At the end of it, we didn't lift the trophy.
Chris
Now, it's probably not the best outlook from a wellbeing side of things and feeling good about yourself. But I think in terms of being a competitor and wanting more and having sustained success, I think it's helped us. So again, even though in that period we'd done all right, you win six out of seven, we wanna win seven out of seven. Um, so that, that mindset and that mentality then leads us to, uh, not be pessimists, but we don't ever really get carried away of ourselves and think we've cracked it.
Chris
And we were also conscious of that spike in physical load. We knew we would tread in a dangerous line because if we're redlining the players and they're not used to being redlined. you get injuries, but we need to redline the players to stop losing games. So it was a real, but we don't have the squad depth to then rotate.
Mike Dowling
Well, I mean, you've touched on some of this, and I'm sitting there thinking, are you reading my questions? Because the squad, the constraints, so obviously, as you said, it was a big squad. You obviously made decisions, and some of them I'm sure you'll say that you may look back on and go, not sure, or did I give everyone a chance? But you had to make these quick decisions and you had a budget.
Mike Dowling
I mean, when you're trying to build a side, how much does budget come into it? And are you sitting there with your spreadsheet going, right, I need to get this one out so I can get this one in? And is this why we had so many players out on loan? And as you said, when we got the injuries, everyone's saying, well, why have we got so many players out on loan?
Mike Dowling
Because we've now got a bunch of injuries. So how does it kind of work? How much is it in your uppermost mind of, actually, I can't have these players because I can't have the budget for them?
Chris
Um, yeah, it's something I pride myself on. Um, I've never in the, again, in the time I've been a manager, I've never asked any owner or director of football or, uh, individual above me for more money. I've always played the hand that I've been dealt. And I think that's important, like the most important thing for, Any football club is the future and a big part of that is the financial stability.
Chris
And we've seen loads of clubs not be financially conscientious. Managers, ultimately, they've got a two-year contract. If they lose six games, they're not thinking about the second year, because they're thinking about their position and their self-preservation, which is fine, but that's not me. So the direction from the owners when we were brought in was, this is something that we need to manage and that's the job.
Chris
And I couldn't agree more. Like Gary and the guys upstairs, their priority is the future of the football club and the sustainability of the football club and making sure that in 50 years time Sutton United are in an incredibly healthy position and are still at the heart of the community. So that's obviously part of the job and that's something I do care about. And also, I also do think of the bigger picture as well.
Chris
And there's some people in the building that they just weren't going to be on the journey with us. So rightly or wrongly, I struggled to, you might have to bleep this, but I struggled to bullshit people. I can't look someone in the eye and say, just, just compete. Just, you know, just keep hanging in there.
Chris
Like if you train well, for the sake of getting through the next two months, if in reality, then they're not part of our plans. Yeah. When somebody says to me, where'd you see me? I can't say to him.
Chris
Yeah, you know, just just keep working. I'll keep trying. Keep, keep, keep persevering with it. You'll get your time will rotate.
Chris
If in reality, I'm, I'm feeding them a load of rubbish. I just can't do that. No. So when I get asked a question, or there's honest conversations to be had, I'll have them.
Chris
And Was it at the cost of the strength of the squad in some respects? Probably short term it was, but in terms of setting the scene and the bigger picture, but also where the group know where I'm at and how I work and building that trust with the group that they've got someone in front of them that good, bad or ugly, I'll say what I think. I might not be right, but I'll say what I think.
Chris
That for me was incredibly important. And also like culturally as well, the environment. We want players to take responsibility and be accountable if they've got someone in front of them that's just feeding them a load of rubbish. That, for me, I don't think lends itself to a successful culture.
Chris
So it's almost like, what are you prepared to compromise? And for me, we chose to take the hit on the squad for the bigger picture and for certain standards and behaviours and messages that we wanted to get across to the group that we wanted on the journey with us longer term.
Mike Dowling
So first of all, if Gary's listening, the fact he said he doesn't ask for more money doesn't mean you can give him a low budget, give him loads of money. But this is probably a really silly question because I don't deal with footballers, but generally in a workplace, if someone sees someone isn't at standard, Others might go, well, hang on, they're getting away with it, and they then lower their standards to that. Does that happen at all with a group? I'm not saying in this particular group or anything like that, but can that happen where the group goes, well, actually, so-and-so's not putting the effort in, so I'll go at 80% and I'll still be better than him.
Chris
I think it can happen consciously or subconsciously. I don't ever, we've never seen it where there's a lack of effort. But ultimately, sometimes people just aren't good enough or the right fit for what we want. There's lads that I've had leave whatever environment we're working with or working in.
Chris
They weren't the right fit for us, but they've gone elsewhere and done great. Yeah. So and equally, we've had guys that have not been too clever in another environment, but they come in with into our into our place of work and they flourish. So.
Chris
you only just got to make decisions and you've got to try and do what you think is best for the team. And ultimately, like, win games of football long term at Sutton United, win loads of games long term at Sutton, have loads of success. That's what every decision comes down to, really. And part of that isn't as black and white in terms of, um, picking the team for the next game.
Chris
You're considering the bigger picture and you're considering the wider impact on certain decisions. Yeah, it's obviously a part of the job that I'm not moaning about. It's the reality of the job. And part of that is when people aren't up to it, being honest and telling them they're not up to it.
Chris
Because equally, I look at it in terms of the best players. It's not fair on them, right? If their level or their performance is being impacted by somebody that's not up to it. up to scratch.
Chris
I mean, like I said, we got to a point where, and I might be wrong, but you obviously got to make decisions. And we felt that some of the players were better out there at 60% than the alternative options being out there 100%. Whether that's right or wrong, who knows? But one thing I do know is when we've been able to consistently get that 12, 13 players on the pitch, we haven't lost many.
Chris
But then the caveat to that is we haven't been able to get that group on the pitch enough because of injuries, suspensions, maybe through a lack of squad depth and lack of ability to rotate. So it's, like I said, it's one big jigsaw puzzle that you've got to try and put together to then, as I said, win loads of games, which is ultimately what I'm judged on.
Mike Dowling
I'd say it's one of those jigsaw puzzles that you don't have a picture on the box, you just have the pieces and you've got to go, there you go.
Chris
Well, what I would say is after the first six months, we do have a picture now. We do know what it looks like. Generally, that's not me just taking an opportunity to jump on your brilliant comment. It's more like having seen the league, having seen What gets 100 points on the board, having seen the existing group of players, having an opportunity to look around and see what's out there.
Chris
Now we know what it looks like and now we know what we need to do to, again, give us the best chance possible to be competing at the right end of the league table again.
Mike Dowling
Okay, so we're recording a couple of days after the season ended, before the retained release list is out. So how much of this group feels like it's yours? And how much do you need that pre-season?
Chris
I would say the group hours yet. I think off-season recruitment is massive. Not just recruitment, it's outlining expectations from day one, certain standards. When you're coming into a building, people talk about marginal gains and stuff like that, but the 1%, we needed to get the 25% right.
Chris
We needed to get the lads bit and then be able to get around the pitch and run. We needed to get lads to a position where when they got up to the ball, they could get an arm on people and disrupt rather than just be bypassed. We needed to get the lads competing both boxes. We need to get the lads organised from the attacking perspective.
Chris
Like, how are we going to score goals? How are we going to create chances? What's our method to get from our goal to their goal? We need to go after the bigger picture stuff.
Chris
Now we're at a point where, and in an off-season, you can then start going after the other bits and pieces in terms of codes of conduct, general expectations, filing system, leadership groups, all of these things. these ideas predominantly off the pitch that you need to put in place from day one that will help reinforce what you're doing on the pitch. Obviously comes pre-season. Pre-season is massive in terms of you've got games, but they're an extension of training.
Chris
You can obviously get a really good physical load into the players, make sure they're robust, you You're at the bottom of the barrel and you're scraping and you go, I've got nothing left, but I need to find a way. I need to track the runner, make that last run into the box. I can't let my man go from a set piece. I'm absolutely done.
Chris
Physically, I'm done. But you know that self-talk that you go through when you're in a difficult situation. I'm not sure how many of the lads have been to the place. pre-season is part of taking the players to those places.
Chris
Going into games fatigued, so there will be games in pre-season where we've trained hard on a Friday and you're basically saying to the lads on a Saturday, get on with it, deal with it, you're tired. You're going to be tired after you've gone to Hartlepool on a Saturday and you need to play Shrewsbury on a Tuesday. Whoever on a Tuesday is done for. long away days.
Chris
You're tired, you're fatigued, get on with it. There's still an expectation to produce a level of performance. But they're all things that you need to practice. And just like we practice set pieces, you need to practice working under fatigue, competing under fatigue physically and mentally.
Chris
And on top of that, you get all the technical, tactical stuff that you iron out and nail down in pre-season. So, It's not our team yet. We've done what we needed to do to get the opportunity to then build our team. There's loads of the group that we really like, as I said.
Chris
Um, there's parts of the group we love. Um, I genuinely have been magnificent, and we owe them a lot. Um, that we've got the opportunity we have to build for the future and to give us a platform to build something special. Um, but there's there's a lot.
Chris
There's a lot of work to do.
Mike Dowling
I was gonna mention preseason a bit later, but I'll jump in now. How You've answered this a little bit, but how intense, how long is your preseason?
Chris
Are you coming back early or are you confident with normal sort of length? Well, with the way that we play and again, the picture that we said about the jigsaw in terms of the picture we have, how do we How do we get the team into a place where we put 100 points on the board? Because that, I might be wrong, but I don't think Rochdale will go up. I've been on the receiving end of that situation where you've been competing for a league title, you're so close, you get the last day disappointment and you go into the playoffs with zero momentum.
Chris
It's horrendous. So the question for us is how are we going to be a team that can put 100 points on the board? A part of that will be, obviously there's loads of technical, tactical stuff and recruitment again and shape and all the rest of it, but a part of that will be from a running perspective, from an applying pressure perspective, from taking the opposition to deep waters and playing at a tempo and an energy and intensity that the opposition can't cope with.
Chris
That's something that we've identified as similar to how Forest Green have played in terms of they play at such a high tempo and energy and they've got real athletic profiles. If you have any success against Forest Green, you've either got to be lucky or you've got to be bloody good. They really stretch the opposition, they put real pressure on the opposition. That's something that that we will try and do and we think that's going to be a key tool for us in terms of giving us the best chance possible to put 100 points on the board.
Chris
With that in mind, we have to train in a way which reflects that and the players have to practice playing in those conditions. that is incredibly physically demanding. So even now it's only York and Rochdale that run further than us and harder than us in the league. So in terms of when we come in at day one where the players' physical condition wasn't great and the running numbers weren't great, We've now shifted that to, it's only the top two teams that run harder than us.
Mike Dowling
It might not always look like that, but that's what the data says.
Chris
And in terms of as data goes, the physical data is the one data set that I'll always listen to because it's so clear. It's black and white. So we've shifted that. We've got that mentality into the group.
Chris
The new signings that will come in, they will obviously be clear on the expectations and how we're going to go about winning loads of games of football. So we need to train hard. But again, that's physically very demanding. So in terms of our duration of pre-season, it's not abnormally long, six weeks.
Chris
Again, the players that we've had as well that will stay on the journey with us, this season has been hard for them. They've had two or three seasons' worth of emotions and challenges rolled into one. So we've given the players a decent amount of time off. They'll have an off-season programme, which will give them a four-week lead into pre-season.
Chris
So they'll come into pre-season fit. If they don't, they'll get injured after two weeks and that's their problem. It's one of them, they've got the programme, you've got to come in fit, because if not, you're going to be behind and we're not going to slow down for anyone. So, six-week pre-season, looking at seven sessions a week.
Chris
seven to eight sessions a week. Now, whether those sessions are 90 minutes or an hour and 15 minutes, they're all done at a tempo and an intensity, which reflects what we want to see on a Saturday. So if we're working, we're working. So I know a lot of people like two day recoveries and stuff like that.
Chris
But for me, if you're coming in the building and you're just ticking over, I think that's when you get into territory of when they're in the building, mixed messages. Are we working? Are we not? Easy-ozy.
Chris
This is a bit light, a bit fluffy. And before you know it, that then translates to the match down the Saturday. If we're doing a two-day recovery, I'd rather just not see the players for two days and you trust them to do their own work away from the building. But when you're in the building, you are working.
Chris
As soon as you step into that ground, we're at it, we're working. And that is very much the overview of what pre-season will look like.
Mike Dowling
Okay. We're just going to step back for this season, and I think you may need to let me finish this question before you react. There's a general air of disappointment around where we finished. You came in mid-season when we were really struggling, not even mid-season, and you moved us clear of trouble.
Mike Dowling
You've had success. We're going to speak a bit more about that later. You've had success in the past. But where does this rank for you personally as an achievement?
Mike Dowling
Whilst you had hoped, and I'm not sure if Claire's been in the office crying yet or not, you'd hoped to push on for the playoffs, which seemed like a really good idea in the November time. Where does this sit for you as an achievement? Can you look at it as an achievement, even though you're frustrated, like you say, about the 119th minute penalty wiping out the whole season for you? Have you had a chance to look and say, actually, we did well?
Chris
No. I'd never give ourselves too much a pat on the back for finishing wherever we've finished in the league, to be honest. It's more, I just see this as an extension of next season, really. But we knew we needed to keep the club in the league to give us the opportunity to then go and build something special.
Chris
That was a big thing. It was more, um, an initial feeling of relief, which I thought would be longer in terms of that feeling, but hasn't lasted long at all. Initial feeling of relief. Great.
Chris
You know that when we come in, the brief was make sure we're in the National League next year. Um, all of the The data, the numbers, the trends were pointing towards Sutton getting relegated. Convincingly, by the way, as well. There was no ambiguity about it.
Chris
It had similar hallmarks by all accounts to what happened in Leeds too. So the first part of the job was very much keep us in the division. We've done that. Now it's a feeling of, right, let's crack on and let's build something proper, something that reflects myself, Dino, the staff, the football club.
Chris
What does Gary Otto want a Sutton United team to look like? What do the supporters want the Sutton United team to look like? Um, now we can build that. Um, so in terms of challenge, this has been the biggest challenge by a long way.
Chris
So I've taken over two teams in around the relegation zone previously, and then we've ended up over a two, three year period. We've ended up pushing for promotion, getting promoted. And then at Worthing, we obviously broke the club's record points total at the level, which still stands. Get that in there.
Chris
Still stands. But despite that, and despite how difficult National League South was, and despite the constraints of managing at Step 4 and Step 3, bigger budgets and all those challenges, this one by far has been the toughest and the biggest. So you could regard that as the biggest achievement, but I'm certainly not going down the local engravers, getting my medal engraved with some sort of successful message on there. It's just very much the success is now the opportunity to build a proper team.
Mike Dowling
You mentioned it earlier and I probably wasn't as kind as I could have been when you said it to me in the season that you'd never really lost two in a row before.
Chris
And I sort of said, welcome to Sutton.
Mike Dowling
You said earlier on about the standards where people were just accepting a greener draw, common bits and pieces. And again, it's possibly going to sound harsh, but I don't mean it. Do you think that spread to us as well, the fans, just kind of been going, oh, well, little old Sutton, let's plod on. I know football fans can be really reactive.
Mike Dowling
And if we win, we're the greatest team in the world. And if we lose, it's the worst thing ever. But do you think that acceptance of the lower standards has transitioned to myself, for example?
Chris
No, I don't think so. I don't think it has. So when I speak to the board, I know it certainly hasn't. There is a real drive and ambition.
Chris
a plan, a process, the financial support to kick on and go again. And I don't think the supporters have, no. I think the supporters are, as supporters go, incredibly supportive. They back us, understanding as well.
Chris
My observations around the acceptance of falling short and the acceptance of dropping points and losing games was very much amongst the first team staff and players, the men's first team staff and players. So, um, You lose, you lose. Rochdale were great, we played really well, but we lost. And that's ultimately what we're here to do, is win games of football when the Sutton United supporters are there to see their team win.
Chris
that would be my feeling. I don't think for one minute that the standards or the expectations have shifted amongst the fan base. And if they have, then that is a reflection of the team on the pitch, not the supporters. That, for me, I think we can't allow that to happen.
Chris
If that is a feeling, I hate that as a manager.
Mike Dowling
No, no. I was just asking, did you think that from that? No, no, no, no. You could tell me it's nonsense.
Mike Dowling
It's fine.
Chris
No, no, no, no. But again, you're on the other side of it. And my, my feeling on that is if there was 1% of that, that was true, then that's even more motivation to shift that narrative. And again, it's, um, Yeah, even more fuel to the fire.
Mike Dowling
So on the tough run, a lot of people, many people, it felt like it was the FA Cup match that kind of swung it. You were saying that it was the injuries catching up with us for the previous run. One of the most frustrating things for me on that tough run, by the way, is I think we went into it only 18 points adrift from the playoffs. And we came out of it still only 18 points adrift of the playoffs.
Mike Dowling
And I'm like, if we could have had the same December, January as we had in November, we would have been well in it. But did you think that FA Cup match was as big a thing as it seems to be made out to be? Or was it just, as you said, a culmination of things and the timing of that, that people just kind of felt flat?
Chris
I think the FA Cup game. I think there's a brilliant example of what we could potentially do and what that 12, 13 players could do at their best. I thought we were excellent. Again, we didn't win the game.
Chris
So in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't mean anything. But I think that emotionally that took a lot out of the group. But that happens. You've got to deal with it.
Chris
That's professional football. That's the job. If you do get disappointment, then you need to, for want of a better phrase, grow a pair and get on with it and bounce back. That's it.
Chris
We had, we lost David O'Bonner who was flying obviously on a red card. We then lost Junior Eccleston who was flying. So then that 13, that 12, 13 very capable players that as a team functioned incredibly well. was then pulled apart.
Chris
And then we lost Jake Taylor the next game. We then lost Eden Pruitt the next game. And before you know it, you're losing with suspensions and injuries. You've lost nearly 50% of a side that's just won six out of seven.
Chris
And again, at that point, we still had nearly 25 players in the building. But, you know, anyone with half a half an idea about football would have looked at it and gone, well, they're probably not good enough to be playing for Sutton United, based on the fact that at the start of the season, this is a team that have won one game out of how many? That was the reality of the situation.
Chris
I back myself as a coach and a manager. I think I'm pretty good at what I do. And the last 22 years has shown that. I mean, I know it sounds arrogant, but I know I can coach and I know I can manage people and I know I can win loads of games of football because I've done it.
Chris
But you're only as good as your players. So it is the player's game. It's not about me. It's not about the coaching staff.
Chris
It's got to come back to the players and the supporters. That's it. But if you've got players out there that aren't good enough, you know, I could be Peck Guardiola, which I'm definitely not. You know, it is what it is.
Chris
You even need to recruit players in, you need to develop the squad, like we said. If you've already got 25 people in the building, then
Mike Dowling
Yeah.
Chris
It's a real, but again, that I'm not moaning about it because that all of those factors have led to me getting the most unbelievable opportunity, which, which I'm forever grateful for and I'm looking forward to making the most of, but that, that is, that's fact.
Mike Dowling
Yeah. Right. This isn't meant to be a horrible one, but looking back, what's one decision where you thought. I've got that wrong.
Mike Dowling
And how quickly did you realize, and did you stick with it or change it straight away?
Chris
Uh, there's been loads, um, most made a couple of substitutions against Shrewsbury that were defensive substitutions. And I don't think I've ever made a defensive substitution.
Mike Dowling
with a view to protecting the lead and it worked?
Chris
Yeah, there was a couple of bits of recruitment around the Solihull game where we didn't have any players that we rushed into because we were light. And in hindsight, I should have basically done what we've done over the past six weeks and just promoted Academy players. In terms of recently, I should have started Lewis Simper against Truro.
Mike Dowling
That was a mistake.
Chris
There's loads. I've made loads of errors. I'm going to flip it over. You can make a podcast about that.
Mike Dowling
What's one decision that you're sitting there feeling a bit smug about going, I got that one, absolutely bang on the money.
Chris
Kai Jennings, Jake Taylor, Hayden Muller.
Mike Dowling
Fair enough. Fair enough.
Chris
That's very good. Yeah. I think when, do you know what, I think the recruitment in general, There's obviously some that have made an immediate impact and that their influence on us staying in the division and basically changing the direction of a sinking ship. I think that's been, their influence on that has been immediate.
Chris
So like Jake Taylor, Hayden Muller, Kai Jennings, unbelievably influential. But then there's also other bits of recruitment which, longer term will prove incredibly shrewd. So there's only two bits of recruitment I'm not happy with, which I alluded to earlier around the Solihull game. And again, on hindsight, we should have just played Ronnie Ruiz, James Fenlow and put these guys in.
Chris
But other than that, I think we've made some really good additions and we've put some really good pieces of the jigsaw in place that will help us longer term.
Mike Dowling
Okay, so again, that's the next question. How do you think your approach to recruitment will differ to previous seasons? Because we've had a few seasons now of complete rebuild, complete rebuild, complete rebuild. For someone like me getting on in years, it's a bit difficult because all these new players come in and I'm like, Christ, who's that?
Mike Dowling
Who's that? I don't recognize any of them. But how What do you look for in a player? What's your template?
Mike Dowling
What's your non-negotiables in a player?
Chris
It's a big, big question. Character first is big. Character, personality. You don't want any dickheads in the building, for want of a better phrase.
Chris
You're spending more time with each other than you do your own family members. You're in each other's pockets. It does help if you've got good characters in the building. That doesn't mean you like everyone, but you get, the right mentality, the right work ethic, honest, real integrity, can give and take low-bass feedback.
Chris
And they're a winner. Comfortable having the difficult conversations. That is incredibly important. Ambitious, And then on top of that, it depends on positions and expectations in position.
Chris
So it's so obvious. I mean, every single Sutton United supporter, board member, staff member, player, they will tell you that we need to tip the scales in terms of experience. I mean, I think we're the youngest team in the league on average. I think our average age on Saturday against Bournemouth was just under 22 and if you take Jake Taylor out of the team then that would plummet ridiculously.
Chris
So we need to get more experienced, proven players in the building that have been there, done it, that know what it looks like on a Tuesday night away at Hartlepool, that knows what it looks like on a bank holiday Monday against Southend after you've just played Aldershot. Like, they've been there. Again, going back to that, bit I said about pre-season, they've had hard pre-seasons, they know what it looks like when you're going to the trenches. Winning leagues isn't about playing 46 games incredibly well and it being free-flowing, perfect football.
Chris
There'll be 10 games where you're terrible and you've got to try and turn them results into points. There'll be eight games, seven, eight games where you're unbelievable and they'll look after themselves. And then it'll be the games in between where it can go one way or another, which will define whether or not you go and do something special. And that is, at Yeovil away, you haven't been great, but you're winning the game 2-1 and you've got six minutes to go.
Chris
It's those moments and those periods that will define it and experience tells me experience is incredibly important in those situations. You know, we need more of those players that can not only help in those moments, help with their own level of performance, but also those, like Kai Jennings is a better player with Jake Taylor next to him. Charlie Bell is a better player with Jake Taylor next to him. There's no way Charlie Bell has the impact he does without Jake Taylor in there.
Chris
The boys along the back line look defensively Again, water's wet, we need to improve. We're not where we need to be. And it's something I've always prided myself on, is being sound defensively. In the last summer at Worthing, when we were building the team for this season, the first thing we'd done was go and get Harry Ransom.
Chris
We needed to make sure that If all else fails, we've got a solid base, a center back where we've got a platform to go and keep clean sheets and win games one nil. We haven't got that at the minute. Now, if you put an experienced center back, in that back line, it improves Eadon Prouty, it improves Junior Eccleston, it improves Toby Byron, it improves Bezzett Topledge, it improves Kwaku Donk, it improves the goalkeeper, it improves the lads in front. So we have to have a more experienced core, a more senior core.
Chris
And then I think with that, that approach or those additions, that then allows you to have your younger players who have got massively high potential that can really compete at the level, longer term can compete at a higher level. But in those moments where there is a dip or again, you're tired, you're struggling, you're fatigued, et cetera, you've got that, as I've said, big hairy ass man next year that can just go like almost talking through the game, right? Against Rochdale. After we scored, the backline dropped deeper by about 10 metres.
Chris
So then we stopped getting pressure on the ball. And if we did get pressure on the ball, there's then gaps for them to play through. And that all come from the backline being deeper. You put an experienced centre-half in there that's been round the block, that knows the crack, that's seen this situation a million-one times, that's tired themselves, but they'll go, right, if I talk and if I drive the line up and I get us organised, that's going to help me.
Chris
That's going to help us get more pressure on the ball, that's going to make my life easier, that's going to lead to us converting this into three points as opposed to zero points. But we don't have that and we didn't have that. But again, What do we expect when you've got a big chunk of players that it's their first year in professional football and it's the highest level of football they've played at? It's pretty obvious and it's something that, as a club, driven by Gary and the ownership group, director of Football Terry, it's something that we're all incredibly clear on is this needs to be the strategy going into the summer.
Mike Dowling
Now, how much scouting are you going to be doing on the 17th of May at the VBS? I think yourself and Jake are taking a close look at some potential players. I'm not playing. Just chuck that out there.
Chris
Well I've made a mental note as well of anyone that's given me a bit of stick so I might play myself and be a player manager. I can still move quickly when I want to so I might be doing loads of recruitment and scouting on that day.
Mike Dowling
loads of, I've heard you shouting. If anyone doesn't know, that's the fans game on the 17th of May. I hope Claire's not going to kill me and I hope it's not first her announcement that Aggie's managing one of the teams and so's Jake. So that should be a good laugh.
Mike Dowling
Although I'm sure they're both taking it very seriously. Got to win, ain't you? Got to win. Absolutely, yeah.
Mike Dowling
You mentioned the Rochdale match. Now, discipline has been a bit of a theme of conversations. I think I saw it yesterday. Ryan Deaney said we've given away 15 penalties in the league.
Mike Dowling
I did say it feels like quite a lot more. You've not exactly avoided discipline yourself. How do we improve it as a group? I know there's the, we need the passion, we need the fight, but how do we learn to push the line, not jump two-footed over it?
Chris
I think, again, it's one of the things that we notice when we come into the building that We were a bit soft, a bit fluffy. There you go, have another shot on goal. There you go, have another line breaking pass. Go on, you step the length of the pitch and you run straight through the centre of our shape.
Chris
Yeah, you get across in the box, no problem. So that That was an issue for us. So when we come in defensively, we were the worst team in the league by some way. The amount of players that the opposition bypassed, we were bottom of the league table in that sense, but by some way.
Chris
So one of the things that we thought that we needed to address very quickly, the big percentages, again forget about the marginal gains, the big percentages, was right, we need to be more competitive.
Mike Dowling
We're easy to play against.
Chris
I'd love to play against us. So we need to be more aggressive. We need to have more of an edge. We need to be combative.
Chris
We need to take more pride. Like if someone comes into the 18 yard box, you've got to view that person as your burglar. That's your house. Someone's coming in your house.
Chris
You deal with it pretty quickly. You don't even let them get to the front door, that type of mentality. And I think if you go back through any successful team, you look at the most successful Sutton United teams, I'm pretty sure they weren't the most pleasant, nice, or if someone was trying to go in the 18-yard box, penalty box, and they're threatening your goal, that was a big problem.
Chris
And having come up against those Sutton United teams, I know for a fact that defending the box and being aggressive against the ball and hard to break down was a big positive of those teams and made them so hard to beat. So we needed to try and instill that type of mentality. It's easier to pull people back than wind them up. our attitude was we need to be more competitive.
Chris
And if that comes at the cost of being accused of being a bit nasty and a bit ill-disciplined, short term we'll take that because we'll be harder to beat and we'll give up less goals and the opposition won't look at us like we're light work. Longer term, again, you get experienced people in the building that have seen it before, that can see Junior Eccleston is a lively character and he's aggressive and at his best, he's at his front foot, aggressive, combative best. If Junior's on the front foot and he's playing with that edge, he's a player that, as we all know, could go and do whatever he wants in his career. But it's, again, that senior player out on the pitch that when the ball goes out for a throw-in and he's just seen Junior leave a little bit on someone, for example, it's then that calm, composed conversation, communication out on the pitch that goes, whoa, just that.
Chris
Again, you look at Chelsea, a great example. Don't have any experience in their team whatsoever. Youngest, I think they're the youngest team in the Premier League. inconsistent, up and down, worst disciplinary record in the league.
Chris
Because they're crying out for Thiago Silva out there. They're crying out for a Peter Cech, a John Terry, these types of players. So I think it is similar to the previous question in terms of if we just tip the scales more towards been there, done it, from what we've got at the minute, which is probably two players that have been there and done it. That's it.
Chris
The rest are all not unproven, but they're in a different situation to that. If we just tip the scales more in the direction of a Matt Gray team, a Doswell team, just lean more towards that, I think that then addresses a lot of the disciplinary issues we've had. But what I would also say is if you If you look at the most successful teams, not one of those teams will be viewed as they're a nice bunch. Yeah, true.
Chris
Man United, I grew up obviously watching Roy Keane and Patrick Vieira as an Arsenal fan kicking lumps out of each other like that. Obviously the game's moved on to it to an extent, but you look at Arsenal, I don't think they're accused of being the most squeaky clean bunch. You look at Man City, when Man City won the, I think it was four in a row, won the treble, they gave away more fouls in the opposition half than any other team. Now, part of that will be again experience a bit and now so if I give away a foul there, I'm probably not going to get booked as opposed to on the edge of our box.
Chris
But ultimately, they were still giving away a lot of fouls and free kicks. But again, they have that streak, they have that edge, which all great teams do. But then on top of that, they had the, I'm basically, they're breaking around the counter-attack. I'm going to do it now as opposed to in 20 metres time, because if I trip him up now, I might get away with it.
Chris
the free kicks in a less dangerous position, I'll do it now, as opposed to 20 metres higher up the pitch and go, I've got to clean him out. Is it done now? It's that type of thing. The Ole Gunnar Solskjaer one.
Chris
Exactly that. Yeah.
Mike Dowling
Okay.
Chris
The thing is, sorry, I'm passionate, I'm I'm lively, I'm on the front foot. You look at Gary, he is front foot, he is all in, he is combative, he is incredibly competitive. Again, I can't I can't convince the players and I don't believe it's right. Like I said, I think there's loads of evidence to suggest that this is the best way to win games.
Chris
But also from an integrity perspective, from the messaging I'm giving to the players, I can't be asking them to do things or produce certain actions or behaviours that I'm not displaying myself. And if I'm coming across like this watered down, calm and composed individual, the players will see through it, which we wouldn't want. I don't think we'd be able to get the best out of the group. And ultimately, I don't think that's the most positive or effective way to work with a group of players to then win games of football.
Mike Dowling
It doesn't quite lead us on, but the other thing that's produced a few groans, which I know the players hear, and I know you've heard, is the playing it out from the back. Now, I've said to you that love it but in our penalty area i'd rather just lump it away as quickly as possible because i'm covering our eyes um how you convince me and stop that panicky groan um when we when we're playing it around at the back um because there is I mean, playing that way, obviously, if there is a mistake, it's very likely to get punished. I think someone told me something like 30% of the time it goes wrong, it ends in a goal.
Mike Dowling
I don't know how true that is. But how important is it to the way you want to play to not just lump it forward? I know you said something, I think it was, was it the oval game when the ball was being lumped forward? How important is that?
Chris
Uh, it's about, it's about what's the game offering up in front of us. So I've always said to the players, and I'm consistent with this. If we can get there in one, do it. And if we can do that consistently, which means we're more likely to win games, we'll do it.
Chris
But what we can't do is try and get there in one when it's not the best decision. So the reason that we absolutely pummeled Shrewsbury Town, the League Two team in the FA Cup was because we attracted pressure. We had a... 1-2-3-5-6.
Chris
We had a 6v3 overload in our third of the pitch, 6v3 situation. We built up shorter. We found the spare man. We then progressed the ball with control.
Chris
They then bumped more players on to apply pressure. That then freed up Simpa and Jadon between lines. We could then play through the pitch a little bit quicker, get the ball to our in terms of Lewis Simper, best attacking player, forward-facing in big spaces, that's something that we want. In reaction to that, they then jumped centre-backs out of their back line, which then meant there was space down the side for Naders, which then meant we didn't need to complete four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten passes because we could get there in two or three.
Chris
So it's ultimately about playing the game that's in front of us. So, um, Where's the overload, where's the spare man, where's the numbers? Well, let's find that player. There's also the other angle of, if we've got Brandon and Joko up front against the six foot four centre back, I'm not sure it's the best idea to crash it on top of the six foot four centre back.
Chris
Now if we play, so a lot of people are looking, why do you bother playing the first pass to the goalkeeper? I know that's an observation and I hear it, I hear commentators and pundits talk about it all the time and it blows my mind how people at that level don't get it. So first pass to the goalkeeper, we're spread, we're split. We're telling the opposition that we're going to build up shorter.
Chris
We play the first pass to the goalkeeper. That then provokes pressure from the opposition. They're then on the front foot going towards the ball. They've committed numbers to their press.
Chris
Now we've got Brandon 1v1 in big spaces in forward areas. The opposition's momentum is towards the ball. We've created space. We then miss that out and then go direct after a single pass into Brandon, into space, not into him in terms of his body, just play the space and then we'll get him in a foot race.
Chris
That is a situation which I think gives us the best chance possible to create chances and score goals. What the supporters have seen is page one, two and three of a hundred and fifty page book on the way that we want to play. Is there going to be mistakes? Has there been mistakes?
Chris
Has it been so frustrating? Yes. It does my head in. We're 2v2 in half a pitch, like we were against Boreham Wood.
Chris
Like, do it. But there's, like, Chris Haig we've worked with at a previous club. Chris Haig knows what we're after. So even with half a team against Boreham Wood, second half we've virtually got them camped in their own defensive third and a big part of that was they committed numbers to their press, they left us 2v2 in half a pitch, Haguey then just went bigger into that 2v2,
Chris
Jermaine Francis affecting the header. we're then landing on the second ball or we're playing space down the side to David O'Bonner. You could see a definite difference between Hagee's decision making versus Simo's decision making, but that's always going to be the case because we've worked with Hagee for over a year on and off. So what the supporters are seeing is the early stages of a way of playing and a group of players that are early in their understanding of the way that we play.
Chris
That would be our thing is is that we want the plans to make the right decision, not the easy decision.
Mike Dowling
Right? Yeah.
Chris
And if we're just smashing it on top of a 64 centre back that's built for that with a five foot eight centre forward who's not built for that, I think that's really poor management and coaching. But on top of that, and this is where I'm sure the supporters will be infused. If we do have a six foot five centre forward, it would equally be poor management and coaching not to play into him quicker. But hopefully that gives the supporters a bit of a steer in terms of recruitment.
Chris
So at Worthing, we brought in two monster center forwards. So we would play through the pitch, we would dominate the football, but we would struggle at times when teams would clamp on man for man because we wouldn't have an out ball. We didn't have enough threat in terms of going direct. So summer of recruitment, back end of that, summer transfer window, we see an issue.
Chris
We brought in a six foot five center forward, and now teams would clamp onto us. We would then miss it out. Go direct. Then the opposition were going, oh shit, we've got a problem here.
Mike Dowling
Then they drop off.
Chris
Then we build up shorter. Then they go, well, we're not having any of the football. We need to get after them. Then they get caught half and half, and then you just cut them to bits.
Chris
And it's that. Ultimately for me, it's about what does the game demand? What does the game need? And then having a group of players that can execute it.
Chris
So I'm not a, I'm not a Guardiola purist, not at all. Like not, not at all. If you said to me, the best way to win the next 46 games is to be double direct because the center backs can't head it. And we've got a monster up front and we will 100% do that.
Chris
It's just about looking at the players that we've got, that we've inherited. How do we get the best out of them? What's the opposition offering up? How can we expose that?
Chris
Right, this is the plan. And this is again the beauty of offseason and recruitment. We can now put in place the round pegs, round holes, which will then give us an opportunity to play this mixed game of football where if the opposition want to press us, we're all the best. All the best because we're at exposure.
Chris
And then if they drop off, they go, well, you're not going to have the ball for the next 96 minutes. And then, as I said, they get caught half and half. and then we've got the ideas and the quality of play to then receive it in between and, as I said, cause them all sorts of problems. I mean, the dream is the opposition shouldn't know where to shit, shave or shampoo.
Chris
That's the crack. When we get the opposition into that headspace, which we've done loads of times, which we've done against Shrewsbury, which we've done against Hartlepool, which we've done against Scunthorpe, which we've done against Wildstone at home, then That's when we'll continue to see us win loads of games of football and play a type of football that the supporters really enjoy.
Mike Dowling
That might be another T-shirt. What was the other one? Fire in the belly, ice in the fridge?
Chris
Yeah, that's a Terry Bullivan quote.
Mike Dowling
That sounds very much like something you're really going to hate. Glenn Hoddle once said, it's not about short ball or long ball, it's about the right ball or the wrong ball. Absolutely. What would it look like in three years' time?
Mike Dowling
Say that again, sorry. If I could give you a magic wand that gives you everything you want, what does your life and Sutton's life and team look like in three years?
Chris
League 2 pushing for promotion to League 1.
Mike Dowling
Excellent. A personal highlight of the six months for you. can be off the pitch on the pitch can be at home for everyone coming on the podcast twice does not count. So that one off.
Mike Dowling
But what would be your personal highlight this season?
Chris
Um, the reception that we got, uh, was amazing. Um, that's, that's always a state with us. Um, Jack Taylor, 4-2 winner against Gateshead and seeing the supporters and the players celebrating together. That was amazing.
Chris
A brilliant, brilliant moment. I've got a picture of that. I love it. I think it's brilliant.
Chris
Just the connection from winning football, all the lads in it together. You've got Jake Taylor, who's 58, sprinting sprint into the huddle to then jump on top of lads. You had lads like Jonesy, who's obviously disappointed with lack of game time. He's come onto the pitch.
Chris
He's as invested as the player that's starting. You've got homegrown player, Jack Taylor, scoring the winner. You've got the supporters all over. I just thought it was a brilliant moment.
Chris
And it helped. I think that was win six out of seven or whatever it was. That was a brilliant moment. Scumthorpe away was massive for me.
Chris
Hartlepool and Scumthorpe away, because they were off the back of two difficult results. It was frustrating because you think, how on earth can we go to Hartlepool and do that, and go to Scumthorpe and do that, and then serve up the dosh that we did a few days earlier? It was criminal. But they were big moments because, from a personal perspective, I know it sounds a bit like, Yeah, I might sound a bit cheesy, but I'm from Hastings.
Chris
I'm a nobody in the grand scheme of things. I've worked since I was 15 whilst playing, worked with under fives, right the way through, coached for 22 years, and to go to Hartlepool and Scunthorpe away and win and win well, was like, from a personal perspective, I got emotional after the Scunthorpe game. It was just, it was just, it was just one that obviously it's a massive football club, they're a championship football club, and you think, This is, um, yeah, this is a brilliant moment because, because obviously off the back of those bucks are two difficult results. You think, you know, we need to bounce back from that.
Chris
It was just loads of factors that meant those two nights were amazing. Um, and that they, that will definitely stay with us. It was interesting. I really enjoyed it.
Chris
But then very quickly, I thought, what's next? It's always been the way whenever we've, I feel like I've made some sort of milestone or done something half sensible. You think brilliant then. It's very quickly, right?
Chris
What's next? Let's go. Let's go and win the next one so that they would be real standouts for us. Also the, you know, the reception after the Ultricon game as well.
Chris
Um, because we were first off, we were right. The second half we were crap. Uh, just, I just thought I was really disappointed in the players. Um, I was really frustrated and I just thought the reception from the fans was amazing.
Chris
and the presentation evening, the sort of warmth and feeling and the acknowledgement of what we've done from obviously the board, the supporters, it's a brilliant moment for us. Even in the face of a real difficult day, I thought the supporters were amazing and the guys upstairs were amazing as well.
Mike Dowling
in a loving way, we're a strange bunch, because when we got to the Papa John's final and we lost, I didn't stay to the end, but the place was absolutely rocking and people were leaving at two o'clock in the morning, and the general consensus was, Christ, what would have happened if we'd won? So yeah, the fans really do appreciate all the players, and as you say, there's never been any sort of lack of effort. Sometimes you just don't come up to the standard.
Mike Dowling
So to finish up, I know the phone's going to be red hot. I know probably you're looking at it now thinking there's messages, but is there any chance for you to switch off over the next couple of weeks? Are you going to get away? had some time to reflect and think actually that was a good job?
Chris
Obviously you can't go into the ins and outs and lay everything out in terms of the challenges and the constraints, but we know and people within the football club know and generally in football people know that it's been a good job. It can't be. It's not job done, it's the first part of it done. The pressure and the difficulty and the feeling that I've had being at this end of the table, I don't want that feeling again.
Chris
Last year we were obviously at the top of the league and the pressure that comes with give me that pressure every day of the week over what we've had over the past sort of six months. So that feeling is driving us on to go and build one hell of a team. And the thing is, as well, I deliberately do it. I deliberately I say what I believe and I'm not scared because there's a lot of managers that will play it down and be a bit coy and won't.
Chris
They may think they can get promoted but they wouldn't say it because they don't want to set themselves up for a fall or they don't want to fail. I mean, I don't want to fail. That's my biggest motivator, fear of failure. That's what drives me on more than anything.
Chris
I've had so many people in my life have said, you can't do that, or you won't do that. It's a bit lofty, those ambitions. And I've always sort of gone, all right, we'll see. So we've put it out there, what we want to do.
Chris
We believe we can do it. We have the backing from the guys upstairs to do it. And with that in mind, you go, well, we've set the, we've set the benchmark there.
Mike Dowling
And I just want to point out is you've said it, Dino and BC were sounding in the background, but you're the one who got off and went, yeah, that's it. We've done it. And the party now.
Chris
No, we, we were, we were like, again, I know it sounds arrogant, but whenever I had an off season and a pre-season, we've always done it. Like when I went to Worthing, everyone said, cool, I wouldn't have done that. Obviously Hinch is regarded as God there and that God status has only been sort of rightly so reaffirmed by his amazing coach, so much success. And I had so many people say to us, like, are you sure about that?
Chris
Like they lost Oli Pierce, lost Joe Felix, lost a lot of their better players. And I thought, well, we'll have a go. And we obviously went there and done incredibly well. So History tells me that if I can recruit the players that we want and you get an opportunity to work with them and put a good pre-season into them, with that time, generally, well, we've always challenged for promotion.
Chris
And again, having seen the last six months, seeing what we've done against Rochdale, Forest Green, the only really game where I've come away from where you went, oh, right, was Southend United. Even the Morecambe game. The Morecambe game was 20 minutes of football that you will never, ever, ever see again. You play that game 150 times and 149 times, you never get that.
Chris
It was mental. You couldn't write it. The Truro game won't happen again because I'll play Louis Simpson next time. Do you know what I mean?
Chris
That type of thing. But yeah, I look at what we've done against the top teams and you go, We can, we can do something here. And, um, so longest answer ever, which is the case for all of them. No, we're not switching off.
Chris
Also part of that is because my wife can't stand me. So she wants me at work. So I'm going to leave it there.
Mike Dowling
That is a perfect ending. We're going to wrap up this episode of Sutton Podcast. As always, we appreciate everyone's attention and feedback. Follow, like and share this episode at Sutton Podcast on socials.
Mike Dowling
Subscribe. Give us the thumbs up. As always, thank you to Lucky Star Gina for the support. And Aggie, thank you for your time today.
Mike Dowling
Thank you, Mike. I'm glad you're on the laptop, not holding your phone up like you were last time. Thanks to everyone for listening. Hope you enjoyed this episode, season of Sutton Podcast.
Mike Dowling
Take care and we will catch up soonish. Goodbye.
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