The final whistle has gone, the kits are packed away, and Sutton United’s season is finally done.
And, honestly?
For once, quite a few of us were ready for the break.
On the latest episode of Sutton United Talk Time on Podcast, I was joined by David and Andy to look back on a strange, frustrating, important season. One that was not always enjoyable, rarely straightforward, but ultimately ended with Sutton United still in the National League.
Given where we were after the opening weeks, that matters.
Mike Dowling
Hello and welcome to another episode of Sutton United Talk Time on podcast. It's the Sutton podcast in association with Lucky Star Gin.
Mike Dowling
It's a season review. If you're a regular listener, thank you very much. And if you're a new listener, you're very, very welcome. Late to the party, but you're very welcome.
Mike Dowling
I'm your host Mike and with me today I'm chatting through the season with David and Andy. Don't forget we love hearing from you, join the conversation, stay connected, share your thoughts, give me the thumbs up, what's it called, retweet or re-ex or whatever at Sutton Podcasts on all major social media platforms. Likes, shares and comments do get the podcast in front of other people's eyes and ears so it really really does help. So, season's over.
Mike Dowling
I just can't wait to have a rest. How are you, Andy?
Andy
I'm good. I'm, for one of the few times in my 40 years of following Sutton, I'm quite pleased the season's over.
Mike Dowling
Yeah, it's few and far between. I'll be honest, there's not many that we're like, oh God, I can't do it. David, how is yourself? Oh, well, thank you, Mike.
Mike Dowling
Yeah, good. Good. So, David, we'll start with you. Simple, very quick.
Mike Dowling
Season's done. How do you feel about it?
David
I think it's been a successful season and I can tell you why. I mean, I think when Chris Agatha joined the club, did we have two points from eight games or something like that?
Mike Dowling
Four, I think.
David
Four. Four points.
Mike Dowling
I think there'd been one win, hadn't there?
David
Yeah. But we were in terrible trouble at that stage. And I think at that precise moment, I think success would definitely have been defined as survival in the National League. which has been achieved.
David
So I think that that means it's been a successful season. I think when you get relegated, there's many, many clubs that tend to go spiraling. So having been relegated from League Two a couple of years back, I think getting relegated again from the National League was a distinct possibility with the cut in budgets, with the reduced attendances, with what has been essentially a kind of bit of a carnival of comings and goings in terms of players.
David
I think actually surviving in this league in itself is quite an achievement. So I think it's been a successful season.
Mike Dowling
Excellent.
Andy
Andy? Yeah, I'd echo that. It started terribly. I think even by September we were in really, really big trouble.
Andy
I know people would say, oh yeah, but we had the hardest games to start. Well, yeah, but did we? I mean, we beat Carlisle. We got a great point at York.
Andy
How many teams got that? It was the problem we had all season of basically this group of players playing really well against better sides and just not really playing well against sides that are equivalent or probably less well equipped as us so i would say yeah probably a successful season for the fact that he kept us up and kept us up with games to spare yeah i mean it wasn't really close In the end, it would have been, you know, had we not switched off by the time we were pretty much safe, it would have been, you know, a good 8 or 10 points clear.
Andy
We definitely went the other way.
Mike Dowling
We definitely went into sort of, that's it, we're done, job done. Well, I was hoping for a bit of argumentative on this, but I'm going to give you this stat.
David
Well, I think to make this a bit more interesting, I mean, I think that that is not to say that things could not be improved. It's not to say that all is perfect and it's not to say there aren't some mistakes, but I think there's a lot of positives. So I think one of the positive things is that we have a management team now that's actually been in the club for a pretty much almost a whole season. in the National League.
David
So that's got to be a good thing for next year, because having been home and away and to all the grounds and learnt the ropes in this league, that has to be a good thing. So next season, just by sheer weight of experience, should get better. The players, well, those players that stay, of course, which won't be all of them, but those that stay will be a bit more experienced. Chris and the rest of the management team will be more experienced.
David
So I think There's a lot to look forward to, but it's not to say that there aren't things that can be improved. I think there are, and we can get into that probably, some of the observations we might have about how things could get better. I haven't checked this stat because I'm just going to take AB's word for it.
Mike Dowling
He said this was our 14th highest finish ever. But with that, you've got to balance it up as it's our worst in a decade, 10 years since we won the Conference South, and we never finished. I think it was 17th was the lowest before this season. And the last five years has been lower, lower, lower, lower, lower.
Mike Dowling
Does that stat tell you we should be grateful for what we've had, or does that tell you that actually we're seeing a bit of a decline? David, we'll start with you on that one.
David
Well, like most things in life, you can see that from very many different angles, right? So, I mean, you could say that on a long term graph, we are outperforming our average quite considerably, right? Which is true. If you take a much shorter term look at the graph, you'd say, well, actually, we're at the bottom end of where we've been in the last few years.
David
I think the truth might be somewhere in the middle. So I mean, long term, I think the club has improved tremendously in pretty much every single area. So league positions, the leagues we're playing in, the state of the stadium, the size and the quality of the squad, the overall sense of a club which is going to play. So I think basically the club has improved in pretty much every single metric in the last few years.
David
The last year or two, obviously, it's got worse from a plain standpoint. We got relegated. We nearly got relegated again this year. And we could have been then into, I think, probably a sort of, I think the reason it was such a successful season, in my view, is I think if we do go back down again, I think from there, it's really, I mean, relegations are relatively easy to achieve,
David
I think, and promotions are horrendously difficult to achieve. So Going down again this year, I think, would have made it very difficult to get back up again. And then I think you can get into spirals down.
Mike Dowling
A good point you mentioned about the difference in the stadium is obviously with that 10 years ago, when we won the title, there's a lot of videos going around. I can't believe the difference in the stadium. And again, it's the small increases over the years. You're thinking, well, that's where a lot of this money has gone, because it's not just on the pitch we have to spend and on the actual pitch.
Mike Dowling
Andy, what do you feel about that, the timeline of the historical where we are compared to more recent history?
Andy
If you look at the teams who we played against this season, like Scunthorpe, like Carlisle, like Rochdale, like York, know these are these are teams you know you can even go down as far as say Yovo or something like that who played in the championship we are not a big fish in a small pond um when we came up in 2016 we our kind of level would have been a bit of a yo-yo club bottom half um kind of dropping down, coming up, dropping down, a bit of an EBS fleet type thing going on. What's happened over the last 10 years, we had unprecedented success in this club. I mean, yeah, we go back, we can still go back and say no one who followed Sutton before 2020 would have ever expected us to ever have been the league club, ever.
Andy
And we're, so expectations have been raised, particularly by those people who don't remember going to Thurrock or Canby Island or Concord Ranges or places like that. So it has, I'm not going to say, yeah, we said it was a successful season. I'm not going to say it was a good season because it really wasn't. But we did things which we really wouldn't have seen at Sutton before, like we sacked a manager.
Andy
Again, if you've been following Sutton for more than three or four years, you know that never happens. So I think it's not been great, but I think it's the fact that we did avoid relegation and we've got something to build on next season and start with something pretty much fresh with a new, young, enthusiastic manager who at times delivered some really good stuff this year. giving him a chance to build a squad of his own rather than pick up pieces that have been left to him or inherited to him. I think, yeah, I wouldn't look at like, this is the lowest place we've been in the last 10 years.
Andy
I would be much more, it's our 14th highest finish.
Mike Dowling
There's a lot of people who would have only picked up something in the last five years. So again, I mean, Johnny is a great example. He started supporting us at the period of success. He only ever knew success.
Mike Dowling
There will be some people who started supporting us. the season after we finished eighth and have only known decline. So it depends on your perspective, I guess. But if we go back to those early months of preseason, Andy, a good preseason, Where your definition of a successful season for both of you, all of us, sorry, has been actually quite successful because we've adjusted it.
Mike Dowling
What were you going into the season hoping for? Steve had promised us better. We did have a very difficult first few weeks because the teams we were playing were all favourites and much bigger budget than us. What were you hoping for in the season and how were you feeling in those first sort of eight weeks?
Andy
I was hoping for mid-table. That was a realistic thing, but alarm bells were ringing because it just felt like, even though on paper the friendlies were probably right, they felt too easy. And you go in winning every single friendly, you learn nothing. You actually want to be losing more than you're winning, so that you can understand why you lost, how you can improve it.
Andy
I mean, someone like the Hampton game, I think that might have been the last friendly, I think. That was just, it was just so easy. It was, you know, we came out of that, it's like, yeah, they've got a few minutes into their legs, but that's about it really. I didn't really need to run.
Andy
So, that set, because I remember last time we did really well in friendlies, we got relegated. So, that worried me a little bit, but I didn't really get worried until September. because York was a great performance, Solihull was a very good solid performance at home, Forest Green was an obvious tactical error. We needed a holding midfielder, we didn't have one, they ripped us apart.
Andy
And then things started going a bit funny, you know, the Scunthorpe game at home, we probably shouldn't have lost that one. I think we were good enough for a draw there. Then we beat Carlisle, great. And then September happens and it was just, what is, what's going on?
Mike Dowling
Yeah. David, what about yourself at the start of the season, great pre-season?
David
Well, I remember at the time, I remember the time listening to the podcast, of course, Mike, and I remember there was a guest or two on who were super positive about the season because of the pre-season, and I wasn't, and I couldn't quite tell you why. And I'm not very good at remembering individual matches, Andy, I'm afraid. So I'm terrible at that. But I do remember the overall sense of it, which is I thought the preseason, I don't trust that at all, because I think it never makes any, it doesn't ever seem to make much material difference in terms of results, what the impact might be on the real results
David
in the league. So I think the preseason we should kind of definitively learn that it's for getting fit, for having a look at different players, for trying different formations and for doing whatever it is that football clubs do, but it's not for looking at results. So I wasn't that optimistic, and I just felt there was something about the way we were playing that I wasn't particularly convinced by. I didn't see any signings which were particularly exciting at that time.
David
Again, don't ask me to remember the individual names, because that's also been another bit of a crazy revolving door. There was a time when I could tell you sort of one to 11 and then three, four subs and that was pretty much our season, you know. And now, I mean, we've got people coming and going on loans and then joining for a week and then we have the interview and then a couple of weeks later, they're not there anymore. And I think that's been one of the kind of intrinsic problems we've had in the last couple of years on the playing side.
David
We've got players that are not quite as good as what we used to have. going back three, two, three, four years, obviously, because we've dropped a league down, but also the turnover is just mad. For reasons which I think we all understand, it's to do with budgets and availabilities and the way the loan system works and You know, you're going fishing for players in the lower leagues and you're taking a bit of a punt on players. So there's all kinds of reasons.
David
And then there's obviously the budget limitation. So there's all kinds of reasons why that's happening. But it must be extremely difficult to get any kind of stability in a team or a setup when you're literally having new players coming every week or two. And if you look at the lineup of sort of, you know, three or four years ago, you could probably say to Andy or you, Mike, you know, can you name the one to 11 of the sort of 20, 23, 24 season?
David
We probably maybe not one to 11, but you could probably get eight, nine or 10 of them. and there's been times this season where I just can't, I couldn't tell you who we're playing and who we're not.
Mike Dowling
And formation as well, sometimes you're like, I can't work out, especially when they put it up on the list with the number order.
David
So I'll try and work out who's playing where, and I can't do that. Yeah.
Mike Dowling
I think I kind of know the answer to this question, to be fair, but How were you, David, at the time when people were getting at Moreau? Were you...
David
I don't like it when it gets ugly, because this is only football, you know, this is not life and death, Shankly famously said, or rather the opposite, but it's not. This is a club which is, you know, I think ought to remember where it is and what it is and where it's come from. So when it gets unpleasant. I don't like that, really.
David
So, you know, I might have my own views about Steve Morrison, but I think I have to assume he was doing his best. I think he was a decent kind of bloke. He obviously knew a lot about football, far more than I do, having played in the Premier League. So I think that he deserved respect for that.
David
And the previous season he did a reasonable job. Well, it was a failure ultimately because we got relegated. But, you know, he made a kind of decent stab at keeping the team up. But it just wasn't working.
David
And there was something around that guy and the club that wasn't clicking. Yeah. In terms of personality or style or relationships. I couldn't tell you what that is because I wasn't on the inside, but you could just feel it from the outside that it's not really flowing.
David
So I think it was a good decision to change. It was necessary. And I think it was a good decision to change early as well. Because I think it would have been very easy to give it another month or two or three.
David
And by that time, we might well have been in real dire straits. Yeah.
Mike Dowling
Andy, how about yourself? Again, very similar to me, support the person in the job, giving all our best, but how were you kind of feeling about a lot of the comments and stuff at the time, or were you kind of thinking he has to fall on his sword at some point?
Andy
Again, a lot of the comments that come from so-called supporters are unnecessary and inappropriate. It's right. It's not life and death. It's a football club.
Andy
And it brings people together. By doing that, you're pushing people apart. And that just doesn't work. It's hideous stuff.
Andy
And even after Morrison had gone a few months, it was still hideous stuff about him. I can't abide that to be honest and it's never ever necessary. These people are human as well. You know, you may not get on with them, you know, but they've done nothing personally to you.
Andy
They haven't gone out of their way to push us near the bottom of the league just to spite you.
Mike Dowling
I woke up on Saturday and went, you know what, we'll really piss Andy off if we lose today. Yeah, I mean, I've said many times I understand why people didn't like him. I always got whatever I wanted from him, so whether I was able to manage him or I managed my own expectations, who knows? But he did leave.
Mike Dowling
We took our time-ish again. Lots of rumors of different managers. What was your initial thoughts on Aggie and the early few weeks of how he was and how the team was? Andy, that's to you.
Andy
Right, okay. So, my very, very, very first thought, which probably left after about five seconds, was, oh my God, I hope he's not another Ian Hazel. Um, you know, because it was kind of, we went from, you know, for those, for those who don't know, we had a very long serving manager in John Raines. He won us a title.
Andy
Um, he was something through and through everyone loved it. And, uh, he basically stepped back and said, right, well, I can't take this club any further. So the board always at that point were looking for someone who had a certain connection. And they hired this kind of young, kind of inexperienced manager, Ian Hazel.
Andy
He's great, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
David
And yeah, he was awful.
Andy
And I was thinking, are we doing that again? Yeah, it didn't last very long. Because I think Aggie was like, he obviously had better experience. He'd had some success.
Andy
He was very, very positive in his outlook. I think in the first couple of weeks, I thought he was, with some of the things he said, he was unbelievably naive. Like after a first game against Braintree, you're never going to see us play that bad again. Yeah, no, we will.
Andy
And we did. And we did. And we did. But, but yeah, I mean, hopefully he's learned from that experience.
Andy
But yeah, in terms of stuff, we, you could tell that some players really had an issue with Morrison because some players really started playing a lot better and a lot more confident under a new management. Whether that was just to kind of cement their place in the side or whether it was relief that they weren't playing for a manager they didn't see eye to eye with or didn't understand his tactics or whatever. but we had that great little path off that first nil nil we have what is it 11 games in the truck where we scored at least two goals something like that yeah we're gonna come to say yeah so i'll shut up there we'll come to that just in case hayes is listening he doesn't he he loves you as a man it was the management yes
Mike Dowling
David, what about yourself? When Aggie first came in, Andy's alluded to something there, which we'll pick up on in a second, where what he was saying is generally positive and saying and doing the right things, but how were you feeling about the choice and sort of shortly after?
David
Well, the choice, truth be told, when the choice is made, I think the name appears. You think, OK, who's that? So you kind of you go online and say, all right, so what can I find out about? So it's not as if I kind of know all the names of managers in the leagues below us, in all honesty.
David
But when I read the CV, I thought, well, it looks, you know, good. I mean, lots of experience, lots of coaching experience at a kind of good level, having had some experience the year before with Worthing. I thought he landed really well in the club from a stylistic point of view, from the way that he spoke, from the way that he interacted with people. I think stylistically, he felt a lot more like a Sutton United manager.
David
And of course, don't ask me to say what exactly that is, but you can just kind of feel it. And I felt around the club, there was a bit of a sigh of relief just having that kind of personality, a bit more approachable and personable and someone you maybe could relate to a bit better. So I thought he landed really well. And then, you know, in terms of the the bold statements, I mean, that's a style maybe.
David
And, you know, that's maybe how he motivates himself and how he motivates players. I don't know. I mean, later on, it's very easy. Hindsight is fantastic.
David
So he's very easy to look back and say, well, you know, maybe he should have been a bit less ambitious and he should have made those comments about the Braintree game and as Andy was saying. So yeah, maybe, maybe not. But he's also learning. I think we all should also bear in mind that he's entitled to make mistakes.
David
You know, it's fine. We all do. And it might be that he himself might look back and think there's stuff that he could have done differently. But I don't think we have to kind of land upon every time they step, he puts a foot wrong and jump on it like it was kind of, you know, a showstopper for the club or any ordeal breaker.
David
I mean, I think we need to kind of relax a bit and grow up a bit about how we react to things, too. I mean, it's OK for him to make mistakes, but I thought he landed really well.
Mike Dowling
Yeah, it's not a gymnastics Olympic final where the tiniest sideways movement of your foot loses you points. And you'd like to think... Can I just interject one thing there?
Andy
It's about the whole thing about Aggie being more of a sack manager. I don't know if that's necessarily by design. When you sack a manager, there is no point in getting a carbon copy straight in. So we have Matt Gray, very personable, very positive.
Andy
um very much you know what you know always went for a drink with the fans you know that sort of that sort of thing when you replace that and you've had to sack them because they haven't you know they haven't performed to the standard you expect you get somebody in who is probably at the other end of the scale which we did with Morrison um who was nothing like that you know you know most of the time you know a lot of people struggle to get their sentence out of him When we sacked him, you go back to the other side of the scale, and then you have someone like Aggie, who is a bit more, character-wise, more like Matt Gray. So, yeah.
Mike Dowling
I think it's also always easier to be the man that replaces the man that replaced a favourite. Yeah. So, Matt, a lot of love from everyone, even though it went bad at the end. Steve was always on to a loser because he was replacing someone who was loved.
Mike Dowling
and then Aggies replaced Steve. But you're right, he does do the right things. He had that conversation with Frances when she was in hospital, gave her a phone call, chatted to him for like 20 minutes. That was class, that really was class.
Mike Dowling
In from what I know, I think she got off quite likely with 20 minutes, to be fair. But yeah, he kind of got it. And he doesn't stop with those outlandish statements, though, because I don't know if you saw it was on the video of the awards evening. He has said we're getting into the playoffs next year.
Mike Dowling
We're challenging. That's it. There's absolutely promise that's going to happen. We're going to find these extra 50 points from somewhere.
Mike Dowling
Can't you just say we'll be a bit better than we were last year?
David
That's probably better. But yeah, it's just the way he does it.
Mike Dowling
He wants to say what he thinks. He says there's no point trying to water it down. Let's just go for it. Andy, you alluded to it a minute ago and I cut you off.
Mike Dowling
He did suddenly hit all the right buttons, get the right notes, get a good tune out of the team, and it was as if like, blimey, there were good players there, we've cracked it. Did you believe we'd cracked it, or did you think we're a bit frail, these are only sort of one nils, or one goal margins, or did you think, that's it, we've done it now, we're pushing on?
Andy
No, I thought we'll push it on. I really did. I mean, there was, there was some, there was some kind of, yeah, obviously we'll stone away losing 40 actually was a better indication of what was to come. But at that point, yeah, we were, we were scoring for fun.
Andy
Goals are coming from all around the pitch. Um, players that had previously been in their shell, like Edom Prusi, suddenly became good. Hayden Muller, who was basically rejected, came back, came good. You can go across the pitch and just see, oh yeah, we are playing with confidence.
Andy
So yeah, I think at that point, I thought, yeah, we're going to be all right. OK, thank you, because, you know, we're coming in the next question when David's had his turn.
Mike Dowling
David, what did you think? They're looking good. It's feeling good. There's a good feeling back.
Mike Dowling
Or were you a little bit in doubt that there is a fragile confidence?
David
Well, we had some stellar performances. I mean, there were some games where we looked seriously good. I mean, that first 80 minutes against, was it Shrewsbury on the TV? I mean, we looked like a pretty classy team.
David
the end we lost. But for most of the game, we were the better team. And we played some very, very, very good football. And there were many games like that this year.
David
And then the kind of frustration, I think, for everybody was that there seems to be this kind of slightly bipolar team, where on a given day, they could turn up and play beautifully. and go away and get a result against a leading team and then come home the next week and get dumped on by a team, theoretically, which was further down the league and not as good. And that became kind of, in a sense, the story of the second half of the season, really, which is that it was one step forward and one step back. But I think you'd probably expect that in a way.
David
I mean, if the expectation is you're going to play like Shrewsbury every week and just kind of knock off wins in the National League with a smaller playing budget and with a new manager and an unsettled team. I think you're kind of deluding yourself really. And then we're enormously helped by a couple of very good loan signings. So notably Kai Jennings, I mean, I think he came at the right time and was in the right place.
David
Jake Taylor made a huge difference. He's not a loan signing. He's permanent. But those signings made a huge difference to the trajectory of the team, I think, more so than anybody else.
David
So I think we got lucky there. Well, it wasn't entirely luck because they made the right choice. But had the guy got an ankle twist or done his knee, we would have had problems.
Mike Dowling
And they made a huge contribution.
David
And I think it changed the course of the season, really.
Mike Dowling
Yeah. I mean, mentioned a couple things and one of the things you said there is there's no way you could play like that 80 minutes and it's rosemary um every week um but where do you think the bubble burst where do you think or what do you think caused the sudden downfall was it just an experience or uh was there a bit more to it david this this year where do you think it started to go wrong
David
Well, we had quite a few of those games where we were getting ourselves into a tangle at the back with the ball, so we were kind of passing around. That's where the Shrewsbury game went wrong, right? We had a mistake. Yeah, exactly.
David
We gifted them. I mean, we really was gifting them. We gave them a goal. I don't know what that does to confidence, but it can't be good.
David
So if you're essentially setting up and establishing a way of playing, which is playing out from the back and all of that, for reasons which I understand, I think I understand properly. Of course, when you start having mistakes, that must knock confidence and, you know, brings a bit of, you know, question, I imagine, to the belief in the system. I don't know. But something, the confidence seems to kind of dissipate somewhat.
David
Don't ask me why, but that might be why. Some fans got a bit frustrated with the playing out from the back. And then you get into this kind of, I think is a bit of a daft debate about whether you should or shouldn't play out from the back. And I think The answer is you probably you need to play out from the back sometimes and other times you don't.
David
And I noticed in the team that it did get much more mixed up as the season went on. So we weren't just kind of noodling around our six yard box, which was causing us all some kind of consternation, I think. And then Jack Sims did start to kind of pick out players further up the pitch and launch it sometimes. And that makes everybody feel a bit better because it was sometimes it was getting worrying.
David
Yeah, I've said it many times.
Mike Dowling
Outside our penalty area, fine, do what you like, but inside the penalty area, I'm just like, please get rid of it. Please, please, please don't let me go. Andy, what did you think about the run coming to an end and then the run after that, where it's all nothing we could do was right. I mean, David said some of the games, but Morecambe, for example, didn't batter us for 90 minutes.
Mike Dowling
Morecambe battered us for 26 minutes.
Andy
They didn't need to after that.
Mike Dowling
Yeah, but a lot of the games, like Solihill, I think it was 12, 15 minutes. We conceded so many goals in this really short space of time. But What do you think caused multiple things or what do you think caused the problems?
Andy
Shrewsbury, oddly enough. We absolutely dominated that game. Our possession stats were something like 75% or something like that. We completely dominated that game.
Andy
We get two players sent off. The players are knackered. And something that I've been saying for a long time this season is the squad as a whole, not necessarily individuals, but as a whole, the mentality is very fragile. And they're not the type of players who can take bumps in the road.
Andy
And that's when things started going awry. I mean, straight after Shrewsbury, you had Walton and Hirsham. The less said about that, the better. Then you had Solihull.
Andy
Again, 10 minutes of complete madness. Then he had Aldershot, one of the worst 0-0 draws I've ever seen. But then, all of a sudden, we got to the south end and we were really unlucky to lose 1-0. I thought that was one of our best performances of the season.
Andy
Played York at home, another decent performance. Lost, Forest Green at home, decent performance. Tamworth, again, not a bad performance. And then it started going a bit funny again.
Andy
Brackley, Boston, probably one of the worst performances I've seen this season. And then again, a little run, a little bit of confidence again, and then Morecambe hit us. Okay, yeah, we got Scunthorpe after that, but then after that we were, with the exception really of, what, Eastleigh, Eastleigh, Rochdale and Aldershot.
Mike Dowling
Oh yeah, no, Hartlepool was another good one. Because I said at the time, the Scunthorpe, Morecambe, Hartlepool and Truro games, I can reverse them, Everyone would have been like, oh, OK, fair enough. But it's because you've got the good ones. As you said, we beat the tough teams, the inferior teams, if you like.
Mike Dowling
We struggled. I mean, do you think, Andy, when you mentioned the squad, Aggie did kind of have to get a lot of players out on loan. that he basically said they're not going to get us to where we want them or where we want to be, so basically they're gone, I would imagine. A lot of that would have been having to get rid of them so we can move the budget to get some players in, but the squad ended up being quite thin and do you think that didn't help?
Mike Dowling
Because when you're running and everything's going well, you feel invincible. But when it stops, suddenly that's when the back starts aching and everything starts going. Do you think that had a lot to do with it as well as confidence?
Andy
I think so. I mean, I think it would be unfair for me to say it's just a mental fragility. I mean, when we won the league, our injury record was No one got injured. When you do get a lot of injuries, that will have an effect on the balance of the side, how the side gels.
Andy
You're playing players in different positions that they wouldn't normally play. Like Brandon, for example, how many times was he played as a lone striker? Because we had to. and he is a lone striker.
Andy
He's fantastic. He's got a striking partner with him but on his own he just is that's not his game but he was being forced to play that game because we didn't have anyone else. So you kind of had that that kind of mix. So I think that played into it.
Andy
We did get a lot of injuries. We got a few suspensions. Um we weren't talking about the discipline too much either um but um but yeah uh but again I just think it got to a point and like he said this in the last couple of his interviews it's like Subconsciously, once we were pretty much safe, the players switched off.
Andy
And that's not what you need. And part of the reason of the success we've had before, I wouldn't say necessarily that technically players like Harry Buseman or Craig Eastman or Craig Dundas, something like that, are significantly better than what we have in terms of national league performers. But mentally, they were. I mean, nothing bothered Harry.
Andy
you know, he would just run all day. Eastman was tough but he was consistent. Dundoe, again, nothing bothered him. And here you're seeing players doing...
Andy
silly things. And I think the mental fragility is tied in with discipline.
David
Yeah. Andy, on the mental fragility thing, would it include something I observed is I got the feeling that whenever a good performance happened, it was a bit like getting a good grade at school. You know, everyone kind of patted themselves on the back and relaxed. Yeah.
David
and started thinking they're a little bit better than they really are. So, you know, when you're when you've got someone who's got a real kind of tough winning mentality, the success will be something to be built on and improved on rather than sit back in your armchair and think what achievement you've had. So I think I got a feeling that there was a lot of that. So after every good game, you kind of felt almost inevitably is going to come a bad one now because They just haven't got the kind of winning, hard streak of getting better and improving.
David
And I'm sure they're training just as hard. I think it's a lack of effort, but somehow it's just a bit of self-satisfaction crept in. So look how good we are and look what we're capable of doing. But then the trouble is you then got to go and do it the following Tuesday, the following Saturday, the following Tuesday.
David
And that's much more difficult.
Andy
And you will, yeah, you're absolutely right. And you will get that with the younger squad.
Mike Dowling
I was going to say, do you think the fact that we don't have someone apart from Jake came in late on, we don't have someone to go boys, you haven't done anything. You haven't won anything yet. You've won a match of football. Anyone can win a match of football.
Mike Dowling
Do we need that experience? Like, um, I mean, Charlie got himself sent off. I can't remember who it was against, but it was literally a yellow card, and then less than five minutes later, another yellow card. You needed someone to be sitting there going, calm down.
Mike Dowling
Just don't do anything stupid for the next few minutes.
Andy
And that's the thing. Even in April, I mean, basically, I mean, Aggie's response to that was, I should have substituted him. It's kind of like, no, no, you need someone to calm him down and get him to play more positive whilst on the pitch. It's not like somebody gets a yellow card and the first thing you think is, I need to substitute them because you want to be using these substitutes to benefit you, not to necessarily result in someone's indiscipline.
Mike Dowling
Yeah, so we were going to talk about discipline. So lots of penalties. Actually, David, I haven't asked you what you felt about the sort of debt for the squad and the sort of the injuries and so on.
David
Well, you see, I think that that's a little bit of a red herring because the thing is, if you got every manager in the National League to talk about squads, I bet you they would all say at various points of the season that they're very stretched, that they've got some injuries, they've had some suspensions, that their number nine has twisted his ankle, therefore they're having to play a lone striker instead of, you know, whatever. And, you know, today we haven't got a regular back four because one of the guys is not well and the other ones, his wife's having a baby. So I'm not sure that this is a kind of solid, a good place to be having a conversation because ultimately that's just part of the season.
David
And of course you can say, yeah, but ours is worse than everyone else. It may or may not be. But in honesty, do we really think the squad was small this year? I mean, At certain points, it struck me we had about 40, 50 people, you know, potentially wearing a yellow and amber shirt on a Saturday.
David
And I mean, either they're in the club to be players or they're not. And if they're not, then why are they there? But we had a lot of people, a lot. I don't know what the numbers are, but it struck me we got a very big squad.
David
And I guess at a certain point, there was a pinch point where there's a lot of injuries and suspensions. You might have a few days where a few match days where it's not the case, but in general terms, I don't think the size of the squad could be a problem. Could it?
Mike Dowling
Not necessarily wondering about the size of the squad, but the quality. So let's say we've got I don't know, seven players that you think, right, we're hinging our bets on them doing really well every game. And if you've got, say, like, for example, Junior, David, and Jake suspended, suddenly you're down to a maximum of four of those players, and you're putting other players in, you might think, well, actually, are they up to the standard that people are taking out? But I accept your very reasonable point that other managers would have the same thing.
Mike Dowling
I don't know what you're doing on a fan's podcast, making reasonable points like that.
David
Everyone's against us. I'm doing my best not to.
Mike Dowling
The referees hate us, the gods hate us. But yeah, disciplinary. Do we think, David, we'll say with you, that it's fair to say we need the players playing on the edge? Or do we need to be saying, hang on a minute, let's roll this back.
Mike Dowling
I mean, Dave Fairbrother made a really, just in the modern game, odd comment on the forum that it was one season that we got one yellow card, but we didn't win the Fair Play Award because Wickham got zero yellow cards. So two teams getting one yellow card between them, that's never going to happen now. But do you think it was part of the fragility? Or do you think it's something that we need to work on?
David
They've got to work on it. I mean, it's about anything which is to do with marginal gains and improving and becoming more professional. And part of that is staying on the pitch. So of course, you've got to work on that.
David
And you will get yellow cards and you will get to send these off. And of course, people are playing on the edge, but you can't have what we have this year is too much. And also what I can't and again, I'm very bad at remembering individual incidents and games and names and everything. But I remember one or two where they were kind of stupid red cards.
David
So, you know, over-the-top challenges. I think they're one or two for punch-ups after the game had ended. This doesn't make any sense. I mean, it really doesn't.
David
And that's just not professional. So, of course, you know, they're not perfect, so they will make mistakes and you'll get the odd one. But that, as a data point, you would want to improve that next year.
Andy
Andy, what do you think about the... I mean, conceding 15 penalties... That's in the league. Let's just say, that's in the league.
Andy
That's not playing on the edge, that's playing with the stupidity.
Mike Dowling
I think it's Rondini who said that, and I'm like, it's way more than 15.
Andy
I mean, you've got... I mean, some of those, yeah, I saw pretty much every one of those penalties conceded, right? Some of them were a little bit harsh, Some were really stupid, I mean just painfully stupid. So you need to cut out the stupid ones.
Andy
and just take the hit where you've got the ones that are a bit harsh or, you know, has to be done because a player is like completely free on goal or whatever. But yeah, I mean, that's not playing on the edge. Playing on the edge is you going forward and taking risks and yeah, maybe giving away a yellow card here and there. because you've got him for a tackle which will give you the advantage and you going forward.
Andy
That's playing on the edge. Kind of like mucking about in your own penalty area and just doing stupid things is not playing on the edge.
Mike Dowling
I mean, I joked about it a bit ago, but do you think referees might have a glance at the disciplinary table with the teams that they're coming up against and think, oh, that's something dirty side. They look at the yellow cards they got. Because sometimes the yellow card, you're like, whoa, hang on a minute. What was that for?
Mike Dowling
Other people are doing very similar. Or do you just think that's nonsense?
Andy
I think they probably do, but only near the end of the season, because the start of the season is irrelevant.
David
Again, perfectly reasonable.
Mike Dowling
So, David hinted at it earlier, but let's talk about the style of play. It's a big change from what we were perceived to be, under Matt, with the long ball. How do you feel, Andy, because the long ball, I loved it in League 2 because it annoyed everyone, we were getting results, OK? Must admit, when we didn't get results, it wasn't the best watch.
Mike Dowling
But how do you feel about the style that Andy's trying to implement?
Andy
Well, yeah, I mean... His style. Going into League 2, it's kind of like... Yeah, about two thirds of the way through the second season, we got found out.
Andy
Um, and it was, it wasn't even, you know, not even the season that Matt Gray got fired in. It was the one before when we were losing 4-1 away at Colchester and Rochdale and places like that. We got found out and Bromley will play the same way. We'll get found out next season in League One.
Andy
As soon as Morrison came in that first match, it was much better to watch. Um, and I think Aggie has carried on with that. Um, I, some of our, some of our play, I mean, that goal we got York, for example, in the very first day of the season played out from the back, that's when it worked beautifully, but it does come with risks. Um, and if you haven't got big men up front, which we don't, you can't really play that kind of route one long ball anyway.
Andy
So you're kind of stuck. And that is really, obviously the team that Morrison got in, which we basically had a continuation of was based around the playing it from the back. Anyway, it wasn't. Yeah, there was no, there was never going to be a big tall unit of a striker at the front who is going to be the target man.
Andy
So I think when it works, it works beautifully. Um, but we need to have the right place to make it work.
Mike Dowling
Would you be more comfortable with having a big unit and options of being able to pass it around or move it quickly?
Andy
Yeah, I think if you had a big unit up front playing with Brandon, would be on a real, real role. Because those two would just complement each other fantastically. You've got Brandon with the tricky stuff, you've got the unit with the big tall headers in. And again, I mean, we were so exposed whenever we had callers.
Andy
Callers are rubbish. The only time the corners were ever decent were the two that Kai scored directly from. But apart from that, I mean, the rest of the corners were just appalling. So, yeah, I think you've got to have a squad of players who are adaptable, not just play one way, but can play two or three ways depending on the opponents, depending on the circumstances, depending on the fitness, depending on the makeup.
Mike Dowling
Yeah, because David, you kind of said it earlier, we need to mix it up a little bit and we were doing that towards the end of the season. But even within a match, if someone's off injured for a minute, you want to get up there quickly. You want to take advantage of every single moment. But what do you feel about the style?
Mike Dowling
Has Agi got this style? Do you reckon he's stuck with it? Or is it going to be a bit more flexible, do we think?
David
Well, I think, honestly, I'm happy to recognize he knows more about than I do. So I trust the guy, and he knows, I think, what he's trying to do. And I assume they're working on it every day. And when it was working well, it was working beautifully well.
David
And I agree with him one time, he said that, you know, if you want to kind of lump the ball forward, we can, but that's what you get. So we had games where also we were doing that, kind of just kind of hoofing it down the channels, and that wasn't working very well either. So I don't think the debate is either or. It's about a bit of flexibility and a bit of variation.
David
The Matt Gray teams, for example, I think they're a bit unfairly characterized as being just about the long ball because that wasn't quite the case. I don't think I mean, we did have also depends on the player. So if you could say next season, Omar comes back. to Sutton United.
David
Again, there he is up the front kind of battling away and having all the duels. He was great at that. But we also used to score a lot of goals down the wing via David Adjiboy, who, by the way, has gone on to a bigger club and is doing really well. So he was a very good Sutton player.
David
But there was a bit of variety in the Matt Gray teams. It wasn't just about lumping the ball forward. There were some good players in those teams who could get that. We had Will Randall and there was Craig Eastman could deliver a very nice pass.
David
Harry Buseman ran into the box. David Adjiboy was fast down the right wing. So it wasn't just a long ball. I don't think that Chris's idea is that we have only one way of playing and that's all we do.
David
but I think his template is not humping it forward and seeing what happens, even less so if you've got Brandon as your number nine.
Mike Dowling
Winning the ball.
David
Yeah, because it doesn't make any sense. I mean, you know, because he's half the size of most of the central defenders in the National League.
Mike Dowling
Yeah. So what if you could make it, as you said, others know more about football than all of us combined, but if you could make a template, what would you want
David
Can you repeat that?
Mike Dowling
If you could make a template, what would you like your Sutton team to look like and play like?
David
like the one that we've had this season, more consistent, with better players in three or four key positions, and with a bit more streetwise about them in terms of not giving away penalties, about not giving away, about not conceding red cards, about not giving away free kicks just outside the box in minute 85. So all of those kind of professional things which will make the team better and get better results I think will make a big difference. I think we need some better players and we've, and I don't like naming names because I think, you know, I always think everyone's trying and what's the point really, but we, uh we're gonna have to see if we can get one or two in who can improve us
David
just like jake taylor did just like kai jenny's did like lewis simper has done um you know you see who can we sign that can make this team better yeah i mean that's gotta be the goal isn't it if you've got player right there's no i could disagree with What I'm definitely not asking for is that we say, no, no, no, let's, you know, let's cut the short policy and cut out from the high press and building from the back, all that. And let's go back to kind of getting a couple of big numbers, a big number six, big number five, and a big number nine, just kind of hoof it. That I don't think is the way forward at all.
Mike Dowling
I know you agree in general, but what about your template? Would you agree that that's how you want football played or do you have an ideal?
Andy
Absolutely, absolutely. Possession, pressing game, yeah. That is much better to watch. Now you know me, I go up and down the country seeing something.
Andy
The last thing you want to go is go all the way up to Carlisle and just see us hoofing it all the time. You want to see us playing football and for the first 15 minutes of Carlisle that's exactly what we did. But then we kind of forgot. So it's kind of the consistency of that.
Andy
You need you need plays. I mean, again, I mean, one one player from last season, again, not really naming names because this would be unfair on him, but I'm going to name it for the reasons that become apparent is Aaron Jones. Aaron Jones was exactly the sort of player on paper that we need to get very experienced. Yeah.
Andy
proven winner, leadership skills. And it just didn't work out for one reason or another. I don't know. I don't know whatever reasons they were, but it didn't work out.
Andy
Um, although I believe we've still got him for another year anyway, unless we, uh, unless we do something about that. But I mean, again, maybe with a newer team that could pay dividends for him next season. I don't know.
Mike Dowling
Okay. So This is a repeated question. If we ignore results, especially the last couple of months, and we look at the bigger picture, do you have optimism for the future? Or are you still thinking it's going to be a bit of a slog next season?
Mike Dowling
Andy. Impossible to say. Impossible to say because we don't know who's going to be playing for us next season.
Andy
The only the only constants we know is we know that Aggie is going to be manager at the start of the season unless something god forbid happens. We've got no idea who's staying, who's going, who's coming in. So at this point it's really difficult to say I've got optimism for next season. Once release list comes out and then we start signing players and hopefully we learned from last year don't get all the players in too early because I think that didn't help us either because when other targets came available we didn't have the budget to do it.
Andy
It's It's a bloody difficult job. I would never want to be a football manager, particularly in the close season. It's horrible.
Mike Dowling
Yeah, it's the close season.
Andy
Yeah, exactly. So, no, I think it's impossible to say at this stage. I'm hoping. Personally, though, because Aggie is going to start, he's going to have his team rather than what he inherited.
Andy
I do feel we are going to do better. That's all I can say at this point.
Mike Dowling
Maybe reframe it a little bit. What's one thing you would really like to see next season? You can go on the pitch, off the pitch, but what's one thing you'd like to see next season?
Andy
Us not being stupid on the pitch. There's been so many times where that's happened, either where we've literally forgotten how to play football for 10 minutes, not seeing a game out professionally, giving away a penalty, just cut that rubbish out.
Mike Dowling
Fair enough. David, what about yourself? Do you think there's any room for optimism at the moment based on everything, aside from the up and down results?
David
And what's one thing you'd like to see for next season? Definitely optimistic, but that I always am. So I think it's important to be, because otherwise, what's the point? I mean, you know, if you don't believe it's going to get better.
David
So I think there's reasons to be optimistic. The reasons to be optimistic, I think, are we have a management team that we basically believe in. They've had almost a full season in the National League, which has got to be useful. And so the last thing you want is to curtail that.
David
That's something to build on. There's some kind of institutional stability around the club, I think, which is really good because that helps. The optimism would come, I think, also having been through that experience. They're not daft, far from it.
David
So they know what's needed, I think. I mean, it's obvious that there's got to be some strength in the squad. What does that mean? I don't know.
David
Does it mean we have less players but better ones? Does it mean we have a different approach to loans? I mean, there's some really practical decisions in this, practical decisions. And then, of course, those are all in the context of reality, which is, can you get the players you want?
David
Have you got the money to pay them? Are they prepared to come to Sutton? You know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And that's not all easy, I dare say.
David
So between what you might wish for and what you might get, there can be some gaps. But yeah, I'm definitely optimistic. And the second part of the question, Mike, I can't remember. What's the one thing would you like to see next season?
David
A much more, a tougher winning and self-improvement mentality. So I think we need to, when we have a good game, this is just a small detail, but I think the club needs to turn down the volume on social media when we win a game. We need to get used to winning games. Winning games is not something you do every now and then when you're having a good day and you've got the win behind and all the rest of it.
David
I think we need to get back to the idea that this is a day at the office. We go in and we try and get three points and you win. And it's good to kind of celebrate that, but we can't be celebrating every league win like it was a cup final with kind of videos of people kind of winding up the crowd and setting off party poppers and having ticker tape welcomes. You know, I think we've got to.
David
Honestly, I think so. I really think, you know, it's a serious thing. It's not criticism of social media things. I think they're trying to get engagement and build energy and all the rest of it, which is good.
David
But it's got to be like, proportionate to the size of the achievement and a 1-0 home win against a team in the bottom three is not reason to be kind of popping open the champagne. We've got to get a bit tougher, I think.
Mike Dowling
A 1-0 home win against a team in the bottom three would be reason to lick champagne for us.
David
I'm going to be honest with you. It actually would be, yeah.
Mike Dowling
So, I don't know what, this just occurred to me. So, some of the things we've seen recently, I mean, I'm going to be a grumpy old man. Andy said it, we don't really sack managers, but we've gone through two in a couple of years now. One of the things I've noticed a lot is obviously social media is all great fun, I have a great laugh on it, but web players are kind of going, oh, so-and-so's shit, so-and-so's this, so-and-so's that.
Mike Dowling
I mean, I think Pruty was linked with a move away, and you had everyone going, oh, shit, I don't know why you'd want to buy him. And I'm going, well, hang on a minute, even if you think that, surely you should be saying, no, he's brilliant. Get the price up. What's wrong with it?
Mike Dowling
I mean, do you think people are too quick to jump on players? And Sam, because if you're a new player, thinking of going on, might go to Sartre, let me have a little look on scroll the social medias, you either go, not sure I want to go there, because they give grief to their players. Or it might be, I might be the grumpy old man, David.
David
No, I think we all enjoy your grumpy old man thing, Mike. No, I think it's a reasonable point. I don't like it myself. I don't see the point of it.
David
I think we're not here to be nasty to each other, whatever we may think. So I just don't like it on a human level. I don't spend a whole lot of time on social media. I'm not on X.
David
I have got Instagram, but my Instagram is always pretty positive. if I've got anything to say on anywhere, I make it positive because I prefer it that way. So I don't like it myself. I've been on the terrorist tour three times this year, and there's one or two guys kind of giving it a lot of jib to players, and I don't really get it.
David
Honestly, I don't really get it. To me, it's a bit moronic because they're not going to play better as a result of getting tongue lashing from some geezer on a Saturday afternoon. So I don't really see the point of it. I think if we're there to be supporters, that doesn't mean to say you can't make some constructive comment and criticism sometimes, but we are supposed to be supporting the team.
David
It is ultimately theoretically a community club, you know, it's not a, this is not Man U, it's not Juve, this is something united and it kind of, it depends on everybody being involved and being supportive and it's about building links with the community. So I think all that good stuff is a reality. And sometimes when people are criticizing, I don't know what actually they expect to happen. I mean, do they believe that after Brazil in the World Cup, you know, Carlo Angelotti is going to fancy a little couple of years at Southern United?
David
I mean, so when people are going on about how the players are not good enough, and the manager's not in. I think, well, which players are you going to go and sign them? Because this is the level we operate at and there's something wrong with it. These are all good football players, you know.
David
Most of them have, you know, come from, you know, Premier League academies or League One academies and they're all, they all know what they're doing. They're all fit and healthy and running around. And, you know, I think, you know, if you, and if you go through the other teams that come to Gownda Green Lane, If you said, who would we sign of these other teams? There's not that many players that you think, wow, this guy is an absolute standout.
David
And by the way, if they are, they're probably going to be signed up by someone a league above or at the top of our league.
Mike Dowling
There are a lot more money than we can pay. Yeah, I've said several times this season that each of the players, you go, no, I can see the potential, I can see what's good there, but for whatever reason it didn't work as a team for quite a long time. And I'm going to do some name dropping. David made a point there about the comments aren't going to help the player play better, and I've had both Eastie and Josh go, yeah, you can't tell me whether I've had a bad game or not.
Mike Dowling
I know if I've had a bad game. What do you think about a lot of, I know what you think, but articulate what you think about a lot of the comments, no swearing, but how helpful do you think it is or do you think we should all bluff it and tell everyone they're wonderful to get money from?
Andy
Well I think all the negative comments are really really helpful but they're only helpful for the people who are making it to make them feel better about themselves. It doesn't help the player, it doesn't help the club. It never has done. And even shouting it from the terraces doesn't help them either.
Andy
I mean, the number of times it was... And these are from long-term supporters, ones that will go up and down the country. Just shouting out when Jadon Harris gets the ball, you lazy bastard! It's like, how is that going to help?
Andy
How is that going to help? And it wasn't even being lazy. It's just the way he runs, you know, so, you know, everyone, everyone, suddenly you put them in a football, you know, in a football ground, they suddenly think they're the expert. There's something you think they know better than everyone else.
Andy
But, you know, you look at it with cold hard logic, it's all bollocks. It's just, it's just, you know, it's people venting their own frustration. And it's time again on social media. So many people are they're straight in with criticism.
Andy
Usually it's kind of like it's moronic levels of criticism. And as you've seen, I've called them out a few times, as you well know. But whenever we do well, suddenly there's like, you know, crickets, people don't, it's like people are so easy to criticize, but they're really, really difficult to compliment. If you are going to be critical, fair enough, but you've got to give the positive stuff when it's deserved in the same measure.
Mike Dowling
Yeah.
Andy
Because otherwise all you're showing, all you're showing is online or in real life that you're proud. Is that the answer you want?
Mike Dowling
I mean, I was thinking as you were saying that, imagine if football disappeared. there was no football. There'd be a whole bunch of podcasts gone, there'd be a whole bunch of YouTube channels gone, there'll be no social media because that's all anyone ever does.
Andy
And unfortunately there'll be aggression in places you don't really want it.
Mike Dowling
Yeah I mean what is it I said to someone that I did say the old adage the one of them uh opinions are like arseholes. We've all got one and most of them are just full of shit. And I include myself, obviously. Right, James, I have kept you for way too long.
Mike Dowling
Thank you so much. I am looking forward to the off-season. I've got one more podcast to come with Aggie, but we are going to wrap up this season, or fans' reviews, on this episode of Sutton Podcast. As always, we appreciate everyone's attention and feedback.
Mike Dowling
Follow, like, and share on all social medias at Sutton Podcast. Like, subscribe, give us the thumbs up, and thank you as always to Lucky Star Gin, and you guys for your time. Andy, David, you've been brilliant. Very agreeable, but brilliant.
Mike Dowling
Thanks to you for listening. I hope you've enjoyed this episode of Sutton Podcast. Take care, and we'll see you soon.
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